DEC

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KenoraPilot
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Re: DEC

Post by KenoraPilot »

Transition9er2 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:28 pm
One thing that needs to be said, unless you are READY and CAPABLE of going DEC you should be more focused on being an FO for a year or so and upgrading when you’re ready!

Let’s use some common sense here... a guy flying corporate jets around the world going DEC is one thing. A 3 year flight instructor with 1500 hrs and a fresh ATPL is entirely another.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Seems to me like too many ppl here are looking a little farther down the road than they should be.

All I’m saying.

T.

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av8ts
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Re: DEC

Post by av8ts »

Transition9er2 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:28 pm
One thing that needs to be said, unless you are READY and CAPABLE of going DEC you should be more focused on being an FO for a year or so and upgrading when you’re ready!

Let’s use some common sense here... a guy flying corporate jets around the world going DEC is one thing. A 3 year flight instructor with 1500 hrs and a fresh ATPL is entirely another.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Seems to me like too many ppl here are looking a little farther down the road than they should be.

All I’m saying.

T.
And this is why Jazz needs a matrix and not just go by your seniority number
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Canoehead
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Re: DEC

Post by Canoehead »

Transition9er2 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:28 pm
One thing that needs to be said, unless you are READY and CAPABLE of going DEC you should be more focused on being an FO for a year or so and upgrading when you’re ready!

Let’s use some common sense here... a guy flying corporate jets around the world going DEC is one thing. A 3 year flight instructor with 1500 hrs and a fresh ATPL is entirely another.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Seems to me like too many ppl here are looking a little farther down the road than they should be.

All I’m saying.

T.
Agree 100%
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goingnowherefast
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Re: DEC

Post by goingnowherefast »

Would the 3 year, 1500hr instructor even pass the PIC assessment? They don't even know what a condition lever is. The guy flying corporate jets around the world probably isn't interested in Jazz, especially to be at the bottom of the reserve list for 80k/year.

I'm legimately curious, are there any DEC quality candidates in Jazz groundschools?

Earlier it was mentioned that the "Wasaya-type" operators pay quite well and do so because they were forced to. Jazz, and then AC are soon going to find themselves in the same position. 80 grand, or even 100 grand to be on reserve and getting called out to fly a Q400 for 6 legs a day into busy airspace. You can keep that job, I don't want it. Call me back when I can start at 150 grand, fly 4 legs a day for 12 days a month and no reserve. Oh, and open up some pilot bases in cities people can actually afford to live in.

Entitlement and joking aside, the Jazz should be begging for ALPA to come back to the negotiating table. AC and ACPA too.
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derateNO
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Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

I wouldn't be surprised if you see a number of medevac/Perimiter/Wasaya/Bearskin Captains leave to go to Jazz if they were one of the people with aspirations for AC and thought their seat at those companies would get them there. Or if they just didn't want to take a pay cut to the FO positions before, which was understandable if you have a family/mortgage etc. With the new flow agreement, if they are young enough and DO actually want to work at AC then leaving for a Jazz DEC position where they might do 1-2 years isn't a bad idea.
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indieadventurer
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Re: DEC

Post by indieadventurer »

How is Sky filling DEC spots with their minimums?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: DEC

Post by goingnowherefast »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:06 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if you see a number of medevac/Perimiter/Wasaya/Bearskin Captains leave to go to Jazz if they were one of the people with aspirations for AC and thought their seat at those companies would get them there. Or if they just didn't want to take a pay cut to the FO positions before, which was understandable if you have a family/mortgage etc. With the new flow agreement, if they are young enough and DO actually want to work at AC then leaving for a Jazz DEC position where they might do 1-2 years isn't a bad idea.
I can see this happening too. Lots of people were hoping to go OTS to AC from a Metro/1900 captain spot and skip the abysmal Jazz FO pay cut. Making the OTS jump from 704 or "705lite" to AC used to happen fairly frequently 2 years ago, not so much anymore. Go DEC at Jazz, pay cut is smaller, get some jet experience, sit on reserve for 6 months, and off to AC.

How it will work out for Jazz is a different question. These pilots will have 5000+ hours, an ATPL, lots of command experience and the desire to go to AC. I'd imagine most of them would be a Jazz pilot for 6 months before off to AC. Not very many will be PFO'd. How many pilots will be interested in that, maybe 50 across the country?

There aren't many who will want to go from a 100k+ 704/705lite captain job working 15 days a month to Jazz at 80k/yr, reserve, etc. with the intent to stay there. Probably just a handful who's spouses drag them south. Jazz will just have to make the deal more attractive.
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digits_
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Re: DEC

Post by digits_ »

Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: DEC

Post by goingnowherefast »

That works well for Porter; YQT, YOW and YHZ. Only YTZ is a common city with other airlines' bases. Porter can attract those who don't want to move to an unaffordable city or commute.

Do it right and they could even save on hotel costs.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: DEC

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Reserve life for a junior bottom of the list captain at Jazz isn't too bad. I bid reserve b (night reserve) and average 7 stand up calls a month but usually end up doing 10 or so because I pick up overtime. The day reserve captains get called out everyday though so I try my best to avoid day reserve.
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flyguy2135
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Re: DEC

Post by flyguy2135 »

I’m wondering if the DEC opportunity will pull some people from encore currently not qualified to upgrade because of the matrix.
It would be a no brainer if you’re living in YVR or YYZ...
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bigEh
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Re: DEC

Post by bigEh »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:49 am
Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
I am really curious about this. Why is it that companies don't offer guaranteed seats to their commuters? Would it piss off those who moved to live in their base city? Is it too expensive? I hear that the commuting policy is great at Jazz anyway but wouldn't guaranteeing those commuters seats save the hassle if the commuter uses the policy and doesn't make it to base on time? Wouldn't the pool of candidates grow if you made it easier to get to work?

I am one of those looking at coming to Jazz with 4000+ hours, lots of command time,~90k/yr, home almost every night. But from the outside, it seems like Jazz would be a great place to hang your hat. Especially if things keep going fast and you can move up the list while lots of pilots leave for AC. Seems to me that long term it would offer faster climb to a great schedule with the main caveat is you sacrifice lifetime earnings. A lifestyle vs pay debate for each person to debate themselves.
And even though the pay would be a huge cut, coming from 704 to DEC at Jazz seems like a pretty big leap. I am curious what the fail rate would be and what would happen should a pilot fail their first DEC ride?
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L39Guy
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Re: DEC

Post by L39Guy »

I know at AC there is/was resentment about commuters - "if I have to live in this dump (YYZ) why should a commuter get a break" was often the attitude. But now that over 50% of the pilots are now commuters (54%, according to my sources), that may change.

If you were to negotiate it into a contract the company would regard it as a cost item, the cost of that last seat sold. Given that not all flights are 100% full it would be difficult to pin down an exact cost. If ALPA or ACAP in AC's case got stupid and demanded J commuting, it would get even more expensive.

In light of the ridiculous cost of living in YVR and YYZ, I would be in favour of a positive space, commute to work policy. Either that or boost the pay to reflect the local cost of living in those cities...a positive space seat to get to work would be a lot cheaper.
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Re: DEC

Post by dhc# »

In order to attract qualified candidates that are wanting to join Jazz but are holding off due to the high cost of living in the major cities, why doesn't Jazz management look at the the old Westjet crew base model of "the Port System" ??
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North Shore
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Re: DEC

Post by North Shore »

flyguy2135 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:40 am
I’m wondering if the DEC opportunity will pull some people from encore currently not qualified to upgrade because of the matrix.
It would be a no brainer if you’re living in YVR or YYZ...
Don't have a dog in this fight, 'cos I'm at neither, but if you're not qualified at Encore, why would/should you be considered so at Jazz?
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av8ts
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Re: DEC

Post by av8ts »

North Shore wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:10 pm
flyguy2135 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:40 am
I’m wondering if the DEC opportunity will pull some people from encore currently not qualified to upgrade because of the matrix.
It would be a no brainer if you’re living in YVR or YYZ...
Don't have a dog in this fight, 'cos I'm at neither, but if you're not qualified at Encore, why would/should you be considered so at Jazz?

Jazz doesn’t have an upgrade matrix. If your seniority number comes up and you have your ATPL your a Captain
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KenoraPilot
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Re: DEC

Post by KenoraPilot »

bigEh wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:49 am
Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
I am really curious about this. Why is it that companies don't offer guaranteed seats to their commuters? Would it piss off those who moved to live in their base city? Is it too expensive? I hear that the commuting policy is great at Jazz anyway but wouldn't guaranteeing those commuters seats save the hassle if the commuter uses the policy and doesn't make it to base on time? Wouldn't the pool of candidates grow if you made it easier to get to work?

I am one of those looking at coming to Jazz with 4000+ hours, lots of command time,~90k/yr, home almost every night. But from the outside, it seems like Jazz would be a great place to hang your hat. Especially if things keep going fast and you can move up the list while lots of pilots leave for AC. Seems to me that long term it would offer faster climb to a great schedule with the main caveat is you sacrifice lifetime earnings. A lifestyle vs pay debate for each person to debate themselves.
And even though the pay would be a huge cut, coming from 704 to DEC at Jazz seems like a pretty big leap. I am curious what the fail rate would be and what would happen should a pilot fail their first DEC ride?
The Jazz training is really first rate, however, the failure rate at Jazz is quite high at the moment in both seats. The PPC scripts have been getting significantly more difficult/focusing on more real life situations. If you failed at DEC ride I am not sure what Jazz would do as this has never happened before. I would assume same as FO's you'd be given some more training and another shot or the TRB (Training Review Board) would investigate to see what all the mitigating factors are. Jazz doesn't want to fail people, they've hired you for a reason so will do everything they can to help you be successful.

If you don't pass the Captain Ride I could only assume they'd place you in an FO position (if you wanted it). But again all un-chartered territory. I am staying at Jazz as my career and I know maybe will criticize my decision but I am very happy with my choice. It's all perspective.
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CPT.HarshColdReality
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Re: DEC

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

CS is now calling me on average 4-5 times a day for WDO. The open time is getting out of hand. A Harsh cold reality is settling in. They will soon be cancelling flights regularly due to lack of crews.

As for the training at Jazz it sure is excellent. However times are changing. As a matter of fact Training must be changed and tailored to the new generation of pilots. Leadership books must be read. I live in this shit and I really do see a danger here in a 1500 CA with a 250 FO in this current training syllabus.

They are many ways to solve these issues. I propose a new upgrade matrix with recommendations from X number of CAs and an enhanced upgrade training syllabus that includes a completely revamped CRM program with new chapters such as leadership, social dynamics and personal care. Raising the starting salaries by minimum 30% all across the board and 40% for first 2 YOS. 10$/hr increase for all CAs over 3000hrs to do PICUS. POS commuting, effectively creating a virtual sub-bases in every destination in their network without any extra cost administratively as all the managers remain in the main bases. Any money claimed to be lost by the loss of the seat will be exponentially be paid back by the extremely motivated crew member who will most likely be 80% more inclined to take WDOs and fly planes FULL of paying PAX in the back.

Partnerships with schools and CAE are cool and stuff with hashtags and fancy cocktail parties but that's all a big show that doesn't really solve the problem LONG term. BUILD aviation schools. Create partnerships with all provincial governments to build massive pilot GIGAFACTORIES. Transform Canada into the Aviation mecca it's destined to be. We have the best LAND to form the BEST pilots in the globe. Aerospace is already one of the main industries in Canada. Now is the time for aviation companies to take POSITIVE steps to fully correct a program they are playing catch up to. Internation students will FLOCK in from the world. Build military like compounds to train pilots, mechanics, disptachers and ramp crews.

Watch the billions of dollars pour in then! Everyone is going to get paid. That my friends is a lesson on SUCCESS.

GODSPEED!
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goleafsgo
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Re: DEC

Post by goleafsgo »

bigEh wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:49 am
Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
I am really curious about this. Why is it that companies don't offer guaranteed seats to their commuters? Would it piss off those who moved to live in their base city? Is it too expensive? I hear that the commuting policy is great at Jazz anyway but wouldn't guaranteeing those commuters seats save the hassle if the commuter uses the policy and doesn't make it to base on time? Wouldn't the pool of candidates grow if you made it easier to get to work?

I am one of those looking at coming to Jazz with 4000+ hours, lots of command time,~90k/yr, home almost every night. But from the outside, it seems like Jazz would be a great place to hang your hat. Especially if things keep going fast and you can move up the list while lots of pilots leave for AC. Seems to me that long term it would offer faster climb to a great schedule with the main caveat is you sacrifice lifetime earnings. A lifestyle vs pay debate for each person to debate themselves.
And even though the pay would be a huge cut, coming from 704 to DEC at Jazz seems like a pretty big leap. I am curious what the fail rate would be and what would happen should a pilot fail their first DEC ride?
I wouldn't count on moving up the list fast, especially as a captain. Most senior guys are here til retirement. I'm 3 years in and basically no one senior to me is leave, everyone who wanted to go to AC has already gone. Now it's just junior guys going.
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GoinVertical
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Re: DEC

Post by GoinVertical »

2 thoughts -

1.) Low time captains (who may very well have just as little time on type) paired with low time FO's is obviously going to be an issue at some point. Hopefully this will be caught with internal SMS trend monitoring before planes are wrote off or worse.

They could put low time crew minimums up to near VFR conditions with runways twice the length required, or come up with an experience matrix for filling the left seat...

Winter flying is challenging, mountain flying is challenging, there are some airports in Canada that are just generally challenging. Some people aren't as good at knowing their personal limits as others...

2.) Who is going to be the first operator to start opening more bases (or ports, satellite bases, whatever) in order to try and address the pilot shortage issue. Even EVAS can hold onto guys in YHZ. How's PAL's turnover in YYT? What are upgrade times like at Porter in YHZ and YOW? Pretty long last I heard.

How many flights a day are there from Victoria to Vancouver? How expensive is it to start a every pairing with a YYJ-YVR deadhead? Even considering the lost flight duty time and lower pilot utilization, I'm sure it's less expensive than cancelling flights.

I bet if Jazz allowed pilots to be bases in places like YYJ, YLW, YEG, YWG, YXE, YOW, YQB, YHZ, and YYT; they could find a large number pilots that would come, and probably stay for the rest of their career. Plenty of guys staying at less than ideal 704/705Lite operators to stay closer to home.
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derateNO
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Re: DEC

Post by derateNO »

The only solution is everyone must have 10,000 hours to be a dash 8 Captain.
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Kosiw
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Re: DEC

Post by Kosiw »

goleafsgo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:58 pm
bigEh wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:49 am
Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
I am really curious about this. Why is it that companies don't offer guaranteed seats to their commuters? Would it piss off those who moved to live in their base city? Is it too expensive? I hear that the commuting policy is great at Jazz anyway but wouldn't guaranteeing those commuters seats save the hassle if the commuter uses the policy and doesn't make it to base on time? Wouldn't the pool of candidates grow if you made it easier to get to work?

I am one of those looking at coming to Jazz with 4000+ hours, lots of command time,~90k/yr, home almost every night. But from the outside, it seems like Jazz would be a great place to hang your hat. Especially if things keep going fast and you can move up the list while lots of pilots leave for AC. Seems to me that long term it would offer faster climb to a great schedule with the main caveat is you sacrifice lifetime earnings. A lifestyle vs pay debate for each person to debate themselves.
And even though the pay would be a huge cut, coming from 704 to DEC at Jazz seems like a pretty big leap. I am curious what the fail rate would be and what would happen should a pilot fail their first DEC ride?
I wouldn't count on moving up the list fast, especially as a captain. Most senior guys are here til retirement. I'm 3 years in and basically no one senior to me is leave, everyone who wanted to go to AC has already gone. Now it's just junior guys going.
This is is telling of the real situation, if there isn't much hope to move up the ladder due to demographics.
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bigEh
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Re: DEC

Post by bigEh »

goleafsgo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:58 pm
bigEh wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:49 am
Add some virtual (or better yet, real ones) bases, so people can live in CYQT, CYWG, CYOW etc. They would have much more applicants. For an airline, adding some confirmed seats on the planes should not be excessively expensive.
I am really curious about this. Why is it that companies don't offer guaranteed seats to their commuters? Would it piss off those who moved to live in their base city? Is it too expensive? I hear that the commuting policy is great at Jazz anyway but wouldn't guaranteeing those commuters seats save the hassle if the commuter uses the policy and doesn't make it to base on time? Wouldn't the pool of candidates grow if you made it easier to get to work?

I am one of those looking at coming to Jazz with 4000+ hours, lots of command time,~90k/yr, home almost every night. But from the outside, it seems like Jazz would be a great place to hang your hat. Especially if things keep going fast and you can move up the list while lots of pilots leave for AC. Seems to me that long term it would offer faster climb to a great schedule with the main caveat is you sacrifice lifetime earnings. A lifestyle vs pay debate for each person to debate themselves.
And even though the pay would be a huge cut, coming from 704 to DEC at Jazz seems like a pretty big leap. I am curious what the fail rate would be and what would happen should a pilot fail their first DEC ride?
I wouldn't count on moving up the list fast, especially as a captain. Most senior guys are here til retirement. I'm 3 years in and basically no one senior to me is leave, everyone who wanted to go to AC has already gone. Now it's just junior guys going.
So at year 3 you aren't getting the schedule you want? And you don't see that imporving? How long have you been captain? You wouldn't expect retirements and AC to offer the chance at a good schedule for someone coming in now?
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Goodman5
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Re: DEC

Post by Goodman5 »

Remember, some people will find anything to complain about.

He probably became a Captain at 1.5-2 years in.. and now he’s not happy with the slower moving list in the left seat.

There are lots and lots of retirements to come over the next 5-10 years and he will find himself in a comfy spot on the list at some point during that time.

In the past, pilots spent 5-10 years or longer on the FO list waiting for retirements so they could upgrade.

This guy is in a wonderful spot and doesn’t seem to know it.
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indieadventurer
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Re: DEC

Post by indieadventurer »

Will they be posting a DEC specific job ad?
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