Jazz Recalls?

[Sharklasers]

Not sure where I said anything about “bad people”.
We all have a stake in this and need to make sure that the things within our control are on track to help get things back towards normal and to get all of our colleagues back to work no matter what airline they work for. NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.
Good luck with the grievance, but I have a hard time seeing how it’s helpful in the current situation.

I do not understand how you do not understand that this is 0 sum.
Every passenger flown on a MPA/MJA is a passenger not flown on AC mainline metal. So the growth of the Jaz/sky fleet comes at the expense and furlough of an AC pilot. Alot of the trunk routes being flown by the regionals could be flown by mainline with some consolidation. The entire contingent of emb pilots can fly the 175 next week. You cannot possibly argue that there is no harm.
I too am interested in all pilots getting back to work but not at the expense of the ACPA pilots. We are running a union not a charity, we cannot be giving away entire sections of the contract for nothing in return.

Mbav8r, the threat that AC will go out to the desert source and bring back 50 clapped out parked RJ-100s during a time of massive contraction to stick it to the pilot union is silly and you know it.

[rudder]

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.

Wow. If you believe that you are either really ignorant or really arrogant.

Prepare yourself to be disappointed.

[altiplano]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

[rudder]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

It is more likely than not that the COVID crisis is going to accelerate the end of the EMB era for both mainline and Express. Hoping to turn back the hands of time is not a high probability outcome.

Mainline will be smaller. Express will be smaller. But dreams of returning to the times of ‘only AC pilots fly the jets’ are pure folly.

[mbav8r]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

Wholeheartedly agree, bring those 175s back, they should have never left your fleet but we all(over 30 years old) know why that happened.

[quote=rxl post_id=<a href="tel:1126523">1126523</a> time=<a href="tel:1599404713">1599404713</a> user_id=40209]
NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.
[/quote]
How old are you cdnflyer? Seriously, there is major history you’re dealing with here, for starters Jazz was a wholly owned AC company, yes we are under contract but only because AC needed money post bankruptcy and sold it on the market, this seems to be lost on you.
The history of Jazz goes back to 1934 as Austin Airways, two years before TCA. Austin eventually became Air Ontario which is now one of the four that became Jazz. The only reason it’s “Air Canada flying” is ego. This slope you’re on has some slippery ramifications, when unions start fighting for their piece of the pie, you can bet some 100s would be added to the fleet, you’re dreaming if you think otherwise. I also believe there is some replacement language about 3 to 2 , RJs for Q400s, one thing for sure, this could get messy, force majeure has not been used yet. Careful what you wish for and remember who you’re dealing with, Calin Rovinescu rarely if ever is embarrassed by pilots.

[rxl]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Agreed.

[planebored]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

[rxl]

It should be easy for all of us to agree that this is economically the worst time in the history of the airline (and just about every other) industry.
At the end of July, the Canadian Press reported that Air Canada lost almost $20 million per DAY through April, May and June, based on the company reported loss of $1.7 Billion for that quarter.
Another thing that we should all agree on is that preserving the integrity of collective agreements is paramount. The potential real world effects, however, of filing a grievance like this at a time like this has to raise a few questions.

The possibility of an arbitrated monetary settlement has been mentioned in this thread. Is this a wise thing to pursue given today’s economic realities?

Should the company not have the operational flexibility to deploy the entire fleet of aircraft that it has under its control in the most economically advantageous way?

Is pursuing this grievance the best way to get your/our brothers and sisters facing furlough back to work as soon as possible?

Is this the best investment of precious time and resources for all parties involved?

Is this the best way to help ensure the long term future and stability of the enterprise and, as a result, our careers?

This is why we are the lowest paid pilots on the planet.

Dear 21cdnflyer,

When you’ve walked the picket line 3 times in your career for a total of 4 months like a lot of Jazz pilots and your mainline colleagues have done, you come back and talk to me.

[mbav8r]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

This doesn’t warrant a proper response, it’s just too ignorant

[rudder]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the terms of the AC/CHR CPA. It - like the ACPA CBA - is a legally binding contract.

[dhc#]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

It is more likely than not that the COVID crisis is going to accelerate the end of the EMB era for both mainline and Express. Hoping to turn back the hands of time is not a high probability outcome.

Mainline will be smaller. Express will be smaller. But dreams of returning to the times of ‘only AC pilots fly the jets’ are pure folly.

What I am curious about is just how much "smaller" the Express and AC fleets will be in the near future?

[planebored]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the terms of the AC/CHR CPA. It - like the ACPA CBA - is a legally binding contract.

I worked at Jazz, I am familiar with the CPA.

If you think a CPA has priority over ACPA's scope language you're living on another planet.

[rudder]

Scope language is not ego.

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the terms of the AC/CHR CPA. It - like the ACPA CBA - is a legally binding contract.

I worked at Jazz, I am familiar with the CPA.

If you think a CPA has priority over ACPA's scope language you're living on another planet.

It does not have priority. Equal footing on enforceability.

Both have FM provisions. Both are specific.

AC will be writing big cheques to everybody for doing nothing. At least until CCAA.

[rxl]

Jazz is a contractor, plain and simple. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

There’s nothing hard to understand about that fact.
Jazz is a contractor and has been for a very long time.
Jazz is a contractor that YOUR senior management has such confidence in and respect for that, not all that long ago, it made a significant equity investment in and signed a long term contract with until 2035.
Might as well get used to it.

[21cdnflyer]

If the company needs short term flexibility on this scope issue to right size aircraft on some routes I think AC pilots will be happy to help - we always are - but it comes in exchange for permanent gains.

Otherwise they can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned, as was mentioned, this isn't a charity, there are clear lines on scope and they have already pushed the bar and pilfered too much from our contract. If they don't want to play or the numbers don't work, bring the E175s back. We have guys current that can fly those planes.

Wholeheartedly agree, bring those 175s back, they should have never left your fleet but we all(over 30 years old) know why that happened.

[quote=rxl post_id=<a href="tel:1126523">1126523</a> time=<a href="tel:1599404713">1599404713</a> user_id=40209]
NO ONE’S stake in this is any more or any less important than anyone else’s.

When ACPA pilots are jobless and regional guys are getting paycheck, there’s a major issue. So yes, the Air Canada pilot’s stake is what matters here; and is more important.

How old are you cdnflyer? Seriously, there is major history you’re dealing with here, for starters Jazz was a wholly owned AC company, yes we are under contract but only because AC needed money post bankruptcy and sold it on the market, this seems to be lost on you.
The history of Jazz goes back to 1934 as Austin Airways, two years before TCA. Austin eventually became Air Ontario which is now one of the four that became Jazz. The only reason it’s “Air Canada flying” is ego. This slope you’re on has some slippery ramifications, when unions start fighting for their piece of the pie, you can bet some 100s would be added to the fleet, you’re dreaming if you think otherwise. I also believe there is some replacement language about 3 to 2 , RJs for Q400s, one thing for sure, this could get messy, force majeure has not been used yet. Careful what you wish for and remember who you’re dealing with, Calin Rovinescu rarely if ever is embarrassed by pilots.
[/quote]

It isn’t ego, it’s the reality of the business. Do you think Delta or United would stand for these types of violations? The history between AC and Austin/Air BC/Ontario/Nova/Canadian/Inter-Canadian/Alliance/Blah blah blah has no bearing on this argument.Jazz is a contractor, a fly for hire company. The contract for actual Air Canada pilots needs to be protected, at all cost. I guess they don’t teach scope at the puppy mill.

[planebored]

It isn’t ego, it’s the reality of the business. Do you think Delta or United would stand for these types of violations? The history between AC and Austin/Air BC/Ontario/Nova/Canadian/Inter-Canadian/Alliance/Blah blah blah has no bearing on this argument.Jazz is a contractor, a fly for hire company. The contract for actual Air Canada pilots needs to be protected, at all cost. I guess they don’t teach scope at the puppy mill.

The pilot groups at Delta and United would burn down the house. Mind you they have an actual union working for them.

[rxl]

It isn’t ego, it’s the reality of the business. Do you think Delta or United would stand for these types of violations? The history between AC and Austin/Air BC/Ontario/Nova/Canadian/Inter-Canadian/Alliance/Blah blah blah has no bearing on this argument.Jazz is a contractor, a fly for hire company. The contract for actual Air Canada pilots needs to be protected, at all cost. I guess they don’t teach scope at the puppy mill.

The pilot groups at Delta and United would burn down the house. Mind you they have an actual union working for them.

What union would that be?

[planebored]

Not ACPA.

[Sharklasers]

This slope you’re on has some slippery ramifications, when unions start fighting for their piece of the pie, you can bet some 100s would be added to the fleet, you’re dreaming if you think otherwise.

Lol I think your the one dreaming on that big man.
Ill take that bet any day of the week. Im sorry to tell you that your baby jets with there outrageous CASM are gone for good. Not even the big bad ACPA pilots being mean to Mr.Rovenscue by trying to enforce their mutually agreed upon contract are going to bring them back.

[rxl]

It isn’t ego, it’s the reality of the business. Do you think Delta or United would stand for these types of violations? The history between AC and Austin/Air BC/Ontario/Nova/Canadian/Inter-Canadian/Alliance/Blah blah blah has no bearing on this argument.Jazz is a contractor, a fly for hire company. The contract for actual Air Canada pilots needs to be protected, at all cost. I guess they don’t teach scope at the puppy mill.

The pilot groups at Delta and United would burn down the house. Mind you they have an actual union working for them.

Actually, those pilot groups have been through an awful lot throughout their very long histories.
I think they’re a little smarter than that.