dhc# wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm
Wondering where do those pilots who had their Jazz start dates and inital ground schools "Indefinitely Postponed" by the company, when the pandemic hit last March, all fit in to this ?
Unfortunately for them, I doubt they are being considered at all at the moment unless they were given a seniority number. There are many Jazz and now ex-Sky pilots to bring back to work before that.
That being said, the company does have a history of honouring any commitments made to new or potential new hires. I’m sure that will be the case here eventually.
dhc# wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm
Wondering where do those pilots who had their Jazz start dates and inital ground schools "Indefinitely Postponed" by the company, when the pandemic hit last March, all fit in to this ?
Unfortunately for them, I doubt they are being considered at all at the moment unless they were given a seniority number. There are many Jazz and now ex-Sky pilots to bring back to work before that.
That being said, the company does have a history of honouring any commitments made to new or potential new hires. I’m sure that will be the case here eventually.
So those who have a union # from a different company altogether, are ahead of those who made a commitment to Jazz with an accepted job offer and start date....got it.
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Different situation altogether. Same type, same route structure, same uniform, different hat.
The idea of a fence is to just allow a temporary operation of two business units separately at one company. Makes a bit of sense here if you ask me. Keep everyone operating separately just for a while until things start to recover. Integrate over the next few years and negotiate the next contract together. Operating each business unit independently would not inconvenience anyone at all. Jazz continues. Sky continues (just wearing a jazz hat) and recalls happen to each department separately. Each aircraft operates on the routes that are most appropriate to them. Eventually the fence is dismantled, one board at a time. The only one inconvenienced are the flight attendants, the office people and Russ.
Don't be too quick to step on the toes of everyone at Sky. In this industry, those could be the shoes of your next chief pilot.
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Different situation altogether. Same type, same route structure, same uniform, different hat.
The idea of a fence is to just allow a temporary operation of two business units separately at one company. Makes a bit of sense here if you ask me. Keep everyone operating separately just for a while until things start to recover. Integrate over the next few years and negotiate the next contract together. Operating each business unit independently would not inconvenience anyone at all. Jazz continues. Sky continues (just wearing a jazz hat) and recalls happen to each department separately. Each aircraft operates on the routes that are most appropriate to them. Eventually the fence is dismantled, one board at a time. The only one inconvenienced are the flight attendants, the office people and Russ.
Don't be too quick to step on the toes of everyone at Sky. In this industry, those could be the shoes of your next chief pilot.
I understand what fencing is.
The difference is when fencing you usually have two companies merging, with two OC's operating at the same time. This is not a corporate merger, Sky is being shuttered as of March 31st, their OC and CPA will no longer be available to be used. Exactly the same situation from the closing of GGN (although it was delayed due to the MAX debacle). The planes won't automatically move on April 1st to Jazz's OC. They need to go through maintenance, FAs need to be trained, AMEs need to be trained, pilots will need to be trained, SOPs submitted to TC for approval, CP named etc.
In fact my guess is the EMBs will end up being parked for a period of time and the currently parked CRJs will take up the 5-10 planes worth of flying that Sky was doing with already trained Jazz crews. And while they are parked, all those things I mentioned will slowly be picked away at until the plane can be rolled out to the line. With whatever crews happen to be senior enough to bid it.
dhc# wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm
Wondering where do those pilots who had their Jazz start dates and inital ground schools "Indefinitely Postponed" by the company, when the pandemic hit last March, all fit in to this ?
Unfortunately for them, I doubt they are being considered at all at the moment unless they were given a seniority number. There are many Jazz and now ex-Sky pilots to bring back to work before that.
That being said, the company does have a history of honouring any commitments made to new or potential new hires. I’m sure that will be the case here eventually.
So those who have a union # from a different company altogether, are ahead of those who made a commitment to Jazz with an accepted job offer and start date....got it.
It's no different than the ground schools that were planned at AC, where people quit their jobs at Jazz.. Encore, Westjet etc. only to have it pulled out from under them with job offers rescinded when Covid hit, with nothing to go back to. And now while they are going to get preferential hiring when it resumes, they will end up with every single AT pilot slotting in ahead. One could argue that isn't fair either.
I know two people who were supposed to be the next GS at AC, both left Captain jobs one at Jazz and one at Westjet and since they had already quit they have had nothing the last year. Both would have been safe from layoff at their former companies. People say "well maybe they shouldn't have quit a few weeks before their AC start date"... well those people probably don't work at an airline and don't know how much online GS there is to do before showing up for day 1. Not to mention wanting a break for a week or two to mentally prepare for a new job.
What happens if it gets voted down? Is Sky's CPA still cancelled and DH8's stay at Jazz? CR really hated those things didn't he... Dangles an airline to get rid of them. Greeasy
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Last edited by Terry_Flaps on Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i'm shaking my head when I see my collegues act like this especially the prepubescent ones on the Jazz community facebook group. The reps said that they will consider the interests of all members just calm down until the people you elected work this out. Jheez. I thought we were better than this. just know Sky pilots never asked for this, and we are all pawns to AC when the dust settles.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
I understand what fencing is.
The difference is when fencing you usually have two companies merging, with two OC's operating at the same time. This is not a corporate merger, Sky is being shuttered as of March 31st, their OC and CPA will no longer be available to be used. Exactly the same situation from the closing of GGN (although it was delayed due to the MAX debacle). The planes won't automatically move on April 1st to Jazz's OC. They need to go through maintenance, FAs need to be trained, AMEs need to be trained, pilots will need to be trained, SOPs submitted to TC for approval, CP named etc.
In fact my guess is the EMBs will end up being parked for a period of time and the currently parked CRJs will take up the 5-10 planes worth of flying that Sky was doing with already trained Jazz crews. And while they are parked, all those things I mentioned will slowly be picked away at until the plane can be rolled out to the line. With whatever crews happen to be senior enough to bid it.
From a very good source, that is not the plan. Work in underway to bring the aircraft on to the Jazz AOC and the plan is to start operations May 1. Sky now Jazz pilots with Jazz cabin crew and Jazz MTC and Dispatch.
The difference is when fencing you usually have two companies merging, with two OC's operating at the same time. This is not a corporate merger, Sky is being shuttered as of March 31st, their OC and CPA will no longer be available to be used. Exactly the same situation from the closing of GGN (although it was delayed due to the MAX debacle). The planes won't automatically move on April 1st to Jazz's OC. They need to go through maintenance, FAs need to be trained, AMEs need to be trained, pilots will need to be trained, SOPs submitted to TC for approval, CP named etc.
In fact my guess is the EMBs will end up being parked for a period of time and the currently parked CRJs will take up the 5-10 planes worth of flying that Sky was doing with already trained Jazz crews. And while they are parked, all those things I mentioned will slowly be picked away at until the plane can be rolled out to the line. With whatever crews happen to be senior enough to bid it.
From a very good source, that is not the plan. Work in underway to bring the aircraft on to the Jazz AOC and the plan is to start operations May 1. Sky now Jazz pilots with Jazz cabin crew and Jazz MTC and Dispatch.
I wouldn't doubt the possibility of the E75's being up and running for May 1. I'm thinking back to when Jazz had the B757 on it's OC and how capable they are in spooling up on a type.
I wouldn't doubt the possibility of the E75's being up and running for May 1. I'm thinking back to when Jazz had the B757 on it's OC and how capable they are in spooling up on a type.
timeflies wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:56 pm
i'm shaking my head when I see my collegues act like this especially the prepubescent ones on the Jazz community facebook group. The reps said that they will consider the interests of all members just calm down until the people you elected work this out. Jheez. I thought we were better than this. just know Sky pilots never asked for this, and we are all pawns to AC when the dust settles.
Bet there's a good chance you aren't junior stuck on the B scale
I wouldn't doubt the possibility of the E75's being up and running for May 1. I'm thinking back to when Jazz had the B757 on it's OC and how capable they are in spooling up on a type.
Good point, that was done in like three months.
In the case of the B757 it was more like 9 months between commitment to operation and first flight. Still an unprecedented timeline to add an airplane and operation that was so different from the local level of expertise.
May 1st is a tight timeline but is potentially doable if everything goes right. More relevant question is whether that date target is necessary. Volume of flying won’t be meaningfully increasing in the spring so availability of E175 lift won’t be critical.
timeflies wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:56 pm
i'm shaking my head when I see my collegues act like this especially the prepubescent ones on the Jazz community facebook group. The reps said that they will consider the interests of all members just calm down until the people you elected work this out. Jheez. I thought we were better than this. just know Sky pilots never asked for this, and we are all pawns to AC when the dust settles.
Im shaking my head at the thought of the Jazz MEC gifting seniority like it is worthless again ala the whole ggn thing, its easy to do that when the ones at the top negotiating and packaging the deal are effected in no meaningful way. The MEC needs to hear loud and clear that it wont be acceptable this time around.
I agree its best to voice an opinion to your elected rep and then see what they present for a vote and be patient but I also think the indignation at those junior "prepubescent" members who are concerned about their own employment situation is unwarranted.
timeflies wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:56 pm
i'm shaking my head when I see my collegues act like this especially the prepubescent ones on the Jazz community facebook group. The reps said that they will consider the interests of all members just calm down until the people you elected work this out. Jheez. I thought we were better than this. just know Sky pilots never asked for this, and we are all pawns to AC when the dust settles.
Im shaking my head at the thought of the Jazz MEC gifting seniority like it is worthless again ala the whole ggn thing, its easy to do that when the ones at the top negotiating and packaging the deal are effected in no meaningful way. The MEC needs to hear loud and clear that it wont be acceptable this time around.
I agree its best to voice an opinion to your elected rep and then see what they present for a vote and be patient but I also think the indignation at those junior "prepubescent" members who are concerned about their own employment situation is unwarranted.
I will personally be concerned by this move but I’m also
well aware that if there was someone to blame for this, it’s air Canada. They called the shot to save up on costs. sky never closed doors/went bankrupt.
For the record, the term prepubescent was used because that’s how they act on Facebook forums, not professional pilots at an airline as respectable as Jazz. They know better.
Let the people in charge handle this. Always easy to talk on the sidelines.
Actually it'd be ACPA to blame. They voted the creation and expansion of SR, which ultimately led to this today.