I suspect another DOH integration, that is the best outcome for Jazz pilots. If SR pilots get integrated with a ratio they would gain many numbers, that's my guess anyways. I think the big mess will be with bases more than positions on a list. Some fences will be placed.
The best case for the Jazz pilot will be botl for the Skyregional pilots with some sort of fence for start up. I don’t see why the Jazz guys couldn’t get it either seeing as this whole deal hinges on their approval.
Likely; BOTL but sr pilots keep yos for pay and flow through
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Dont know why everyone keeps calling it a precedent.. its not, it wasnt a merger it was the nice thing to do basically. And like usual, if theres a vote, itll pass because people dont know how to say no
dhc# wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:17 am
Re-read the press release, the goal in the end is to save Air Canada money, everyone is focusing on the Embraer fleet...but what if no agreement can be reached between ALPA and Jazz, will the 19 Dash 8 300s still be retired as planned....more layoffs ?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
throwaway123 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:00 am
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
Dont know why everyone keeps calling it a precedent.. its not, it wasnt a merger it was the nice thing to do basically. And like usual, if theres a vote, itll pass because people dont know how to say no
The mechanics of the transactions may be similar, but there is no comparison between the state of the industry in general - and Express in particular - as between 2019 and 2021.
This one will be much more complicated. It is doable. But it will require greater attention to impact which will not be mitigated by unprecedented attrition.
Does the Jazz ALPA shop "owe" anything to the SKR ALPA shop when you have 600 in your own house sitting on EI/CEWS ?
AC and Chorus want this, so Jazz takes the 25 175s, parks em' or gets rid of them, puts part of the idle Jazz fleet on the former SKR routes and in addition brings back their own guys on layoff. I fail to see what if any leverage do the SKR pilots have in this deal ?
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
And those were a type already operated by JZA, so able to be integrated into the fleet with no fencing.
OTOH adding 25 aircraft if a type not ever operated by Jazz means at the very least qualified contract pilots to start up the operation. The incoming pilots being qualified makes the idea of fences more logical. But I am sure that overall Jazz will want to operate the EMJs their way, so I don’t see fences being a long term solution.
None of this is going to matter until the government gets rid of the travel restrictions. I am sitting on reserve at Jazz and haven’t flown in over a month. There’s literally NO transborder flying right now at the Express level.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
Yes, I forgot about those CRJ200's. Were those 5 originally in the Jazz fleet prior to going to Georgian?
I'm thinking that it ends up DOH with fencing on the E175's until things recover. The DH3's are gone one way, or another. Seems AC domestic regional network will never be quite the same and many smaller communities will likely lose their AC network services.
I see zero fencing happening. Based on precedent set with the GGN integration.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them.
Yes they did. Crj 200s and part of the deal was a handful of 900s that were being allegedly prepped to go to GGN.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
And those were a type already operated by JZA, so able to be integrated into the fleet with no fencing.
OTOH adding 25 aircraft if a type not ever operated by Jazz means at the very least qualified contract pilots to start up the operation. The incoming pilots being qualified makes the idea of fences more logical. But I am sure that overall Jazz will want to operate the EMJs their way, so I don’t see fences being a long term solution.
My guess is the EMBs won't even be operated for quite some time. Jazz has a ton of planes parked right now. Those will all be brought back to the flight line before the EMBs. All the EMBs need to go through Jazz mx, and be put on the OC. There will need to be an approved training system in place as well. You can't just move planes from Sky to Jazz and have them fly asap. Sky's CPA is being pulled so this isn't like when two airlines merge and you can continue operating on both OCs for a time like CDN/AC etc.
In the meantime, if there were say 5-10 Embraers flying at Sky right now I expect 5-10 CRJs to be brought back on line to fill that void and those EMBs taken or of service for now. So crewing, fencing etc won't matter.
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Last edited by throwaway123 on Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kosiw wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:58 am
AC and Chorus want this, so Jazz takes the 25 175s, parks em' or gets rid of them, puts part of the idle Jazz fleet on the former SKR routes and in addition brings back their own guys on layoff. I fail to see what if any leverage do the SKR pilots have in this deal ?
IIRC, when Canadian and Air Canada merged, fences went up. They lasted a few years while things were slowly integrated. Even though they brought over the same types of planes, initially the Canadian guys put on an air Canada uniform and did the same job as they did before in the same airplanes with the same bidding system and the same crews. I think it took a few years before they integrated everything slowly. First pay scales. Then seniority, then bidding systems, then eventually everyone was allowed to fly together.
Jazz's contract is due in 2025. Negotiations will start earlier than that. That's just over 3.5 years from now. By then the industry will be in recovery and things will be better. Put a fence up for a couple of years and no one is greatly put out by their DOH. Operate as sky with Jazz on the side of the planes for a couple of years. By the time 2024 rolls around, things will be better and you can negotiate that next contract in better times with the fences removed.
Arnie Pye wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:08 pm
IIRC, when Canadian and Air Canada merged, fences went up. They lasted a few years while things were slowly integrated. Even though they brought over the same types of planes, initially the Canadian guys put on an air Canada uniform and did the same job as they did before in the same airplanes with the same bidding system and the same crews. I think it took a few years before they integrated everything slowly. First pay scales. Then seniority, then bidding systems, then eventually everyone was allowed to fly together.
Jazz's contract is due in 2025. Negotiations will start earlier than that. That's just over 3.5 years from now. By then the industry will be in recovery and things will be better. Put a fence up for a couple of years and no one is greatly put out by their DOH. Operate as sky with Jazz on the side of the planes for a couple of years. By the time 2024 rolls around, things will be better and you can negotiate that next contract in better times with the fences removed.
That's not possible. This isn't a merger. It's the same as when GGN shut down, contract pulled and planes moved to Jazz. The whole point of SKR being shut down is to save money and consolidate.
Also Jazz pilots are losing 19 classics. Why would they agree to fences on planes that are taking their work? I know I wouldn't.
It's a bit different as the Georgian pilots never brought any aircraft over with them. Bringing the DH3 fleet removal into the equation just muddies the water.
That's not correct. We received a net 5 CRJ200s from AGN when all said and done.
Yes, I forgot about those CRJ200's. Were those 5 originally in the Jazz fleet prior to going to Georgian?
Was it mentioned in any press release, that SR Flt crew/FA's/Maint staff were coming over to Jazz as part of the deal ? Or is everyone assuming so, maybe its just the 25 jets and the routes...
