Jazz vs. WestJet comparison: 1 year later

[Bede]

It's been 1 year since I left Jazz for WJA. When I run into old friends at Jazz, they always ask me how I like it. Some ask for advice on whether they should try the jump. I'm now off probation now, so I can say all. So here's a comparison:

Pay: Advantage WestJet. Gross pay is freely available, but there is a huge disparity between gross and take home because of the ESP. As a 1st year FO, I take home about $2300/mo not including perdiems- that is not much and is about $46% of my gross. Gross is around $65000 including ESP. However, I have accumulated about $15000 in WJA stock (which I will sell when it vests). Here are some more estimated take home pay numbers (all numbers based on 20% ESP contribution:
3rd year FO: gross: $10000/yr, net $3300/mo
6th year FO: gross: $11500/yr net $3800/mo
1st year Capt: gross $15500/yr net $5600/mo
10th year Capt: gross 210000/yr net $7000/mo
If I take 1/2 my ESP out when it vests, I get an extra 20% pay tax free (since the tax was paid the year before). If I did this the second year FO, I would get an extra $1000/mo, 4th yr $1300/mo, 7th yr $1800/mo. 2nd yr capt $2300/mo. Also this is assuming no overtime (x1.5) and no extra shifts (straight time). The best I've seen is a T4 of $280000 with an extra pairing per month. I heard someone did $343000, but he paid money to a computer programmer to write a program to automatically pickup any overtime that became available instantly without him having to look at it, so no one else had a chance to get OT. Because of this, the system changed.

Schedule: Draw. I work 15 days/mo. Same as the RJ out of YYZ. Routes are similar, but I have the option of overnighting in the Caribbean and Hawaii. The one thing that is better is that the flying is more productive. I have a Sophie Sit about once a month for 2 hours. When we do, everyone complains. This results in having better overnights with the same flying credit. I love Flica, a program that allows us to drop legs and pick legs up.

Airplane: Advantage WestJet. I like the 737 about the same as the 705. Since I didn't fly the 705 all the time, I like the 737 better. It performs better than the 705 and much better than the 200. Disadvantage: No synomptic pages and no EICAS. (No I'm not joking). Since WJA didn't purchase more options on it, we have an MFD that's blank all the time except for start. I also loved the hawkeye feature and plane-plane feature on the ACARS. I really miss those. The 737 is surprisingly reliable. I haven't yet cancelled because of a mechanical and have been late maybe twice. Relevant MEL's are almost non-existant.

Pension: Draw. Personally I like WJA ESP program better, but to each their own. Some guys will save all their ESP for retirement and some will take half out as soon as it vests to give themselves extra net pay (see above). Of course there is more risk to our approach. I have these numbers based on starting at 30 yrs old, 6% return, 2.5% inflation. I plan to diversify my holdings as soon as they vest.
ESP% Retirement Age Monthly income/mo
10 60 $4500
20 60 $8500
10 55 $3000
20 55 $6000

Employee Representation: Draw. I'm not a big fan of unions (ALPA included), but I thought the guys representing me at the LEC and MEC level at Jazz were first rate. I have nothing but respect for them. The results of their dedication were reflected in your latest contract. I like the association model better for a number of reasons, but this balances out because WJPA is a member of PACT (all employees), so we end up with me-too clauses across the board. You can thank PACT for having to pay for jumpseats.

Upgrade times: Unable to determine. I figured upgrade times now are around 8-9 yrs at WJA under this business plan. We don't know of any further growth past 2018 (all 737 delivered).

Coworkers: Draw. Both WJA and Jazz have excellent pilots and FA's.

Employee-Management relationship: Advantage WestJet. This is purely a function of their being no union and management being very careful not to get a union (especially flight attendants). I had to work Christmas and I showed up to work and the Capt had $20 gift cards from the company and WJPA thanking us for working over the holiday's. That little stuff goes a long way. I've never misread a schedule until just a few months ago (still on probation). I felt like an idiot having to admit my mistake and call my CP. I thought I'd be written up for sure. The response I got: "as a wise man once said, `sh*t happens'. We don't even track that stuff". Holy cow!! I wasn't used to that. Nothing but respect for the guy because of that approach.

Commute: Advantage WestJet (surprise). I commute from Thunder Bay and it's easier to get to YYC with WJA than it was to YYZ with Jazz. The loads are lighter and flights are never cancelled.

Company travel: Advantage Jazz/AC. Sorry, but I like AC planes better.

Training and SOP's: Advantage Jazz. Jazz has top notch training and SOP's. Ours can be mickey mouse at times. Also, we are not even allowed looking in the sim's other than for a sim session. When I started at Jazz, they encouraged us to go in the sims when no one else was using them; "just don't turn on the motion." The SOP's here are very convoluted and difficult to follow; nearly everyone agrees on this.

So here are some WJA pet peeves:
1) The WJA campus is incredible. Sometimes though you get the feeling that it's Singapore Airlines at head office and Ryan Air in the flight deck. We always get the "low cost carrier" speil on why we don't have niceties, yet they spend $400 on an ergonomic office chair.
2) I always thought WJA had an "empowerment" type philosophy. In reality if feels like a thick, heavy grease is getting in the way of a smooth running operation. I see absolutely no empowerment here. Anyone can delay things for whatever dubious reason, but nobody can make up time. For example the other day their was a count discrepancy between the computer and the FA count. The FA's counted twice and checked all the boarding passes. We had a heavy person (2 seats) on board which is known to cause a computer glitch. It was obvious there was a computer problem, yet we took a 40 minute delay while some CSA type people accused our FA's of not being able to count and worked with some other inexperienced manager types to fix their computer glitch. On discussions with the captain, he told me that the captain used to get all relevant information and make a decision to go since he had the most airline experience of anyone. Now, it's some junior manager in some office who gets to decide when to send an airplane out. Policies and procedures are necessary, but sometime the situation doesn't neatly fall into a policy or procedure and no one knows what to do and can't solve the problem other than the pilot who are "not allowed to make commercial decisions".
3) Every airline has their Scott Tapson's.
4) Employee's writing each other up. At Jazz we used to write up situations. Here, people are eager to write anyone up if they look at them sideways. I've never been written up. Fortunately, we have a CP who basically throw's the dumb write up out before the pilots even know about it. CSA are especially eager to write up crews who show up to the gate late, even if the flight isn't delayed.

Here's some stuff I like at WJA:
1) No seniority and upgrade policy. We all get the same schedule. If you really want something, you can prioritize it higher. Also, upgrades are "by seniority", but before you get upgraded, the CP looks at your training file and calls some captains to see how fit you would be. This is the way all airlines should do it. Seniority should have no basis for anything for professionals. I have benefited greatly from the seniority system at Jazz (hired at 25 at the beginning of a hiring boom, never worked Christmas, top 50% within a year), but it's fundamentally unfair to those who dedicated their careers to places like SkyService, just to see it go belly up.
2) Executive engagement. We had the CEO in for a pizza party on our initial course (free pizza and beer). We had a conversation and he asked me, "in your 4 years at Jazz how many times did you see Joe?". Enough said. Executives often come into the recurrent ground schools. At Jazz they would send in some manager of supply procurement or something equally insulting.
3) Better "talent" management. WJA does have a better reputation than Jazz so we can attract top notch bean counters and marketing people.

In summary, I am glad I came to WJA and it was well worth it. I think generally it is a better job and better company than Jazz, but a lot of it has to do with perception. I love WJA, but I loved Jazz as well. However, when you're surrounded by people talking up your company, you perceive it to be much better than when your surrounded by people trashing their company/job. Make no mistake about it, Jazz is a good job and had I not been hired by WJA, I would have been happy making a career at Jazz.

It would be great if someone posted net pay and retirement numbers as I did above under the new contract.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Great post. Very informative!

[Changes in Latitudes]

Incredibly helpful and appreciated. You really went above and beyond for Avcanadians.

[Canoehead]

Great post FH:) Glad things are going well there for you.
Nice to see some straight forward dirt on things.

[simplyput]

Bede,

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write a seemingly unbiased account of your experiences.

Cheers.

[David Hasselhoff]

EXCELLENT post. A tip of the hat to you, sir.

A good example to us all... 7 years of Avcanada exposure hasn't corrupted his proactive, objective and positive outlook!

[sky Rookie]

A lot of your paycheck goes to the ESP or profit sharing. If the company ever tanked does that all disapeer?

And like everyone else said, great post, once in a blue moon avcanada has something useful and interesting

[Bede]

Thanks for the feedback.

Skyrookie, You are correct, 40% of your gross income is into the company stock (20% from employee, 20% from employer). If the company tanks, and you left all your ESP in WJA stock, you're hooped. Virtually every financial adviser will tell you to sell company stock ASAP. Not that WJA stock has no value, but if things go south, you not only lose your job, but retirement savings as well. There were many guys a few years back who wanted to cash out and retire once the stock hit $30. They're still working.

The one thing that I wondered when I started is how the company gives you stock. There are two ways: buy stock on the open market, or create new stock for the employees. WestJet does the former which is the proper way to do it. Nortel created stock for their employees. Because nothing was bought or sold, creating stock out of thin air did not lower the stock price. Once the stock started going down, employees flooded the market with their "free stock" which accelerated the stock's decline.

[Black Cat]

Great post Bede!

[ballstothewall69]

Great post! Love to read intelligent editorials. Really, as for employers I beleave, "same shit different pile" adage. A little crude maybe, but there is a little good in everybody. Perception is very individual and personal. You presented this in a very professional way. Maybe a second career in journalism!

Thanks

[Jastapilot]

Just want to add to the ESP info. Once the ESP vests, you have 100% control over that stock, you can keep it as WS shares, or liquidate and reinvest at your leisure. The ESP vests after 1 year, and you can sell shares 4 times a year. I liquidate once a quarter every year and pay bills and reinvest into other areas. My financial advisor suggest I keep a certain percentage as WS stock, but with the amount tied up waiting to vest it'll be a while before I have the properly balanced portfolio.

As for the comments about pettiness between certain employee groups, on just about every point Bede makes, it's tough to disagree; there are issues that never existed even 7 years ago, but I submit that most of that attitude stems from our previous CEO from Deer Lake. He did a lot of damage to our culture, and I'm happy to say that I've seen much improvement since Gregg took the reins.

Cheers.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Good Thread!

CK

[Brize]

Jazz seems to have an endless supply of Westjet haters. I've even sat in an A320 jump seat and the captain's comments about WJ made me want to vomit. I'm so tired of hearing their dribble on the line.

I've never applied, possibly never will but you never know where this career can take you.
A very refreshing post and intellectual post . Thank you.

[Scuba_Steve]

Jazz seems to have an endless supply of Westjet haters. I've even sat in an A320 jump seat and the captain's comments about WJ made me want to vomit. I'm so tired of hearing their dribble on the line.

I've never applied, possibly never will but you never know where this career can take you.
A very refreshing post and intellectual post . Thank you.

Since he was a 320 captain I'm guessing he was an AC guy. I have not really heard much in the way of WJA bashing in my 3 months at Jazz, but I am pretty new. Everyone i've met has been quite posative in their outlook, helps that there is a new contract, and expansion that always cheers pilots up.

Great post Bede!

Cheers

[Dark Helmet]

Excellent Post Bede,

You did forget one thing, uniforms.

Come on, do you miss the hat and the tunic

[simplyput]

I've been at Jazz for many years and must say that I disagree with some of the comments made by Brize.

Rarely do I hear anyone make any negative comments about WestJet....Air Canada on the other hand, well that's a different story.

[under the radar]

Accurate post except,
"Schedule: Draw. I work 15 days/mo"
Everyone works 16 days a month unless you have vacation.

[Bede]

If there's anything anyone else wants a caparison, just post and I'll add to the original post.

If someone wants to post net pay and retirement income for Jazz that would be great. When I was there, I worked under the old contract.

[Stinky]

If someone wants to post net pay and retirement income for Jazz that would be great. When I was there, I worked under the old contract.

The new contract made a big difference. Per Diems especially, $900 usually for a month. The embarrassing cheque we used to get on the 25th that would pay your phone bill and not much else is pretty decent. Usually about $1250. The cheque on the 10th for me has been a low of $1700 to $2800 with some overtime.

[Bede]

Stinky,

What year are you in?