I am enrolled for a judges course in March. Any advice from pilots that compete or people who judge?
Appreciate any advice.
bmc
Judges school
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Judges school
Hey, I've probably flown now in a couple of dozen contests over the last 10 years, mostly in Intermediate and I can offer up a few words of wisdom.
#1 - be finicky.
- you really need to subtract off points starting at 10 and count down. If you get to a 4/10 .. so be it.
- Save 9'/10's for absolute total perfection which you will likely very rarely see.
- I learn far more from the most finicky judges, than those that give me 9's (rare).
- write notes if you can as to why the score was the way it was.
#2 - be consistent.
- try to always do the same things. Even if you are doing it a bit differently from the other judges it will likely be ok as you will judge the same set of pilots in the same flight.
#4 - don't fall into the long lines are good trap. This drives pilots of less expensive planes crazy and helps push up the cost of the sport. A line is a line no matter how long for the very good reason of giving everybody a fair chance without a 1/2 million dollar monoplane.
#5 - try not to be impressed by low flying. I know its hard but it just encourages people to play lower than they are comfortable.
Glad to see somebody is joining the judging ranks, its pretty rare in Canada.
peter
#1 - be finicky.
- you really need to subtract off points starting at 10 and count down. If you get to a 4/10 .. so be it.
- Save 9'/10's for absolute total perfection which you will likely very rarely see.
- I learn far more from the most finicky judges, than those that give me 9's (rare).
- write notes if you can as to why the score was the way it was.
#2 - be consistent.
- try to always do the same things. Even if you are doing it a bit differently from the other judges it will likely be ok as you will judge the same set of pilots in the same flight.
#4 - don't fall into the long lines are good trap. This drives pilots of less expensive planes crazy and helps push up the cost of the sport. A line is a line no matter how long for the very good reason of giving everybody a fair chance without a 1/2 million dollar monoplane.
#5 - try not to be impressed by low flying. I know its hard but it just encourages people to play lower than they are comfortable.
Glad to see somebody is joining the judging ranks, its pretty rare in Canada.
peter
Re: Judges school
Thank you Peter
That was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for from a competition pilot. I live in Switzerland. They have a big shortage of judges here and it's been an issue for a while. Since private flying is prohibitively expensive, I see this as a way of staying involved and doing it in beautiful country.
Not sure when we'll make it back to Canada for good. We left for a two year adventure and we've been gone for 12.
Really spot on advice. Thank you.
bmc
That was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for from a competition pilot. I live in Switzerland. They have a big shortage of judges here and it's been an issue for a while. Since private flying is prohibitively expensive, I see this as a way of staying involved and doing it in beautiful country.
Not sure when we'll make it back to Canada for good. We left for a two year adventure and we've been gone for 12.
Really spot on advice. Thank you.
bmc
bmc
Re: Judges school
One other thing...could you elaborate on point #4. I'm not sure what you mean.
bmc
Re: Judges school
Peter is saying that given two identically flown maneuvers,
judges often score aircraft with higher power to weight ratios
better because of the "wow" factor of long vertical uplines.
A good example of this would be metal yak 55 vs composite
Sukhoi 26. Same engine, but the sukhoi will have more impressive
vertical lines because of the better power to weight ratio.
You can see how the Yak driver might be pissed because from
his perspective, the Sukhoi driver bought himself a better score.
judges often score aircraft with higher power to weight ratios
better because of the "wow" factor of long vertical uplines.
A good example of this would be metal yak 55 vs composite
Sukhoi 26. Same engine, but the sukhoi will have more impressive
vertical lines because of the better power to weight ratio.
You can see how the Yak driver might be pissed because from
his perspective, the Sukhoi driver bought himself a better score.
Re: Judges school
Good comments all. I would add to really educate yourself on judging criteria and stick to the book. There are some high level judges in this sport who still use their impression as base for scores. I remember one time I got 10 and "best I ever seen " comment from one judge and 7.5 with "roll rate too slow" from another. It was roll on top of the loop in Intermediate. When I questioned the low scoring judge , he explained that since I was in an Extra 300, I was expected to roll fast. READ THE JUDGING CRITERIA. That 's the other side of the coin for all bitter Pitts drivers. Flying high performance monoplane comes with it's own challanges. Yes, you can wow the uneducated judges with long lines, but they have long time to ponder if your long line is relly verticall, or 89deg. You never see guys finally moving up from a Pitts or simillar to their dream unlimited monoplane and score well. It usually takes a year or two to polish your flying the last 5-10%.
Re: Judges school
Jerz...just saw your post. Thank you for that.
Great advice here from everyone. I will take this on board.
The course session is scheduled for a Saturday morning with 2 flights scheduled for the afternoon. A link to the FAI site gives me the manual for maneuvers. I take the course on the 20th. The course will be here in Switzerland.
I may post an update afterward and possibly ask some questions. I really really appreciate the comments and advice. I'd like to do well at this.
Cheers
bmc
Great advice here from everyone. I will take this on board.
The course session is scheduled for a Saturday morning with 2 flights scheduled for the afternoon. A link to the FAI site gives me the manual for maneuvers. I take the course on the 20th. The course will be here in Switzerland.
I may post an update afterward and possibly ask some questions. I really really appreciate the comments and advice. I'd like to do well at this.
Cheers
bmc
bmc
Re: Judges school
Hello everyone.
The course is this Saturday. I printed all 110 pages of the "Regulations for the Conduct of International Aerobatic Events", Powered Aircraft".
I am working my way through the book. Any advice on sections that I should know really well and be particularly diligent about?
Also, there will be two demonstration flights in the afternoon. I could be wrong, but my hunch tells me it'll be in a club Extra 200. What characteristics of that airplane type should I be aware of that I should not expect in other aircraft? I expect good vertical lines. Anything else that I should not be wowed by or be prone to judging other aircraft as being less capable of? In other words, this will be my benchmark airplane to pay attention to as a judge. I realize that over time, the Yak's and Sukoi's will point out differences.
And finally, in your competition experiences, which judges stood out for you and why?
I really wish I was closer by to buy beers for this free advice. My siblings live in Ottawa. Maybe one day.......
cheers
bmc
The course is this Saturday. I printed all 110 pages of the "Regulations for the Conduct of International Aerobatic Events", Powered Aircraft".
I am working my way through the book. Any advice on sections that I should know really well and be particularly diligent about?
Also, there will be two demonstration flights in the afternoon. I could be wrong, but my hunch tells me it'll be in a club Extra 200. What characteristics of that airplane type should I be aware of that I should not expect in other aircraft? I expect good vertical lines. Anything else that I should not be wowed by or be prone to judging other aircraft as being less capable of? In other words, this will be my benchmark airplane to pay attention to as a judge. I realize that over time, the Yak's and Sukoi's will point out differences.
And finally, in your competition experiences, which judges stood out for you and why?
I really wish I was closer by to buy beers for this free advice. My siblings live in Ottawa. Maybe one day.......
cheers
bmc
bmc
Re: Judges school
Judging primary/sportsman/intermediate is a little different than advanced/unlimited.
Different maneuvers. For a basic judge's course, you'll probably be looking at
the former, so you probably don't need to worry a lot about how to judge tailslides
and rolling circles and outside snaps.
Common stuff to look for:
1) vertical lines. For aircraft WITHOUT symmetrical wings, the aircraft will NOT be pointed in the direction that it is going. Don't let this fool you. Also, the length of the line is NOT a judging criteria, neither is how square the corners are. The difference between a 1/2 cu-8 and a sawtooth is just a momentary pause on the upline. Low powered aircraft can't pause for very long!
2) shallow on the 45 down. Very common. Learn about perspective based on the aircraft's altitude and location relative to you.
3) short after on (eg half) rolls (eg) on 45 downlines.
4) bridged hammerheads
5) forced spin entries
6) faked spin exits - watch for the ailerons
Vertical exit.
7) entry and exit altitude of loops - this is easy - hold up a piece of paper. Roundness is a little harder to objectively measure
inside the box? Learn the rules for zeroes for where a maneuver is started, etc.
9) sometimes competitors get confused and start to fly mirror images after crossbox maneuvers - zero, zero, zero.
10) learn the protocol for voting amongst judges for zero/non-zero maneuver, with 3/5/7 judges.
11) learn about breaks
12) pay attention to the wind aloft so you understand what is happening to the aircraft.
Generally you start as a scribe, watch and learn, then move up to a judge.
Hope this helps!
Different maneuvers. For a basic judge's course, you'll probably be looking at
the former, so you probably don't need to worry a lot about how to judge tailslides
and rolling circles and outside snaps.
Common stuff to look for:
1) vertical lines. For aircraft WITHOUT symmetrical wings, the aircraft will NOT be pointed in the direction that it is going. Don't let this fool you. Also, the length of the line is NOT a judging criteria, neither is how square the corners are. The difference between a 1/2 cu-8 and a sawtooth is just a momentary pause on the upline. Low powered aircraft can't pause for very long!
2) shallow on the 45 down. Very common. Learn about perspective based on the aircraft's altitude and location relative to you.
3) short after on (eg half) rolls (eg) on 45 downlines.
4) bridged hammerheads
5) forced spin entries
6) faked spin exits - watch for the ailerons
Vertical exit.7) entry and exit altitude of loops - this is easy - hold up a piece of paper. Roundness is a little harder to objectively measure
inside the box? Learn the rules for zeroes for where a maneuver is started, etc.9) sometimes competitors get confused and start to fly mirror images after crossbox maneuvers - zero, zero, zero.
10) learn the protocol for voting amongst judges for zero/non-zero maneuver, with 3/5/7 judges.
11) learn about breaks
12) pay attention to the wind aloft so you understand what is happening to the aircraft.
Generally you start as a scribe, watch and learn, then move up to a judge.
Hope this helps!
Re: Judges school
Just copying that to a word doc and tucking it into my binder.
I am lucky to have this input. Thank you!
I am lucky to have this input. Thank you!
bmc
Re: Judges school
Gosh, I forgot ... learning Aresti notation!!
Details: half roll, full roll, point roll. Linked rolls. Permissible directions of linked rolls.
Enjoy the judge's course! I took it years ago, and learned plenty
I think I actually got enough counters to qualify as a regional judge but I never submitted the paperwork because by then the court cases had started to work their way through the four levels and they wouldn't even be at the same airport at the same as me, so it really didn't matter.
Details: half roll, full roll, point roll. Linked rolls. Permissible directions of linked rolls.
Enjoy the judge's course! I took it years ago, and learned plenty
I think I actually got enough counters to qualify as a regional judge but I never submitted the paperwork because by then the court cases had started to work their way through the four levels and they wouldn't even be at the same airport at the same as me, so it really didn't matter.
Re: Judges school
Hello everyone
Good course. Half of the guys there were either current aerobatic pilots that compete, or current/former judges. We happened to have the chief judge (world) for glider aerobatics there as well. Small group. Maybe 10-12 of us.
Around 3 pm, we had an Extra 300L go up and do a sequence. It was interesting to look up and watch critically what is going on. It was interesting that the guy giving the course made a point of not measuring vertical lines or expecting faster roll rates due to specific airplane performance.
We have 3 events starting in May. The Swiss Nationals are in June. I'm hoping to get at least one event in before the nationals.
I wore my DeHavilland baseball cap that I picked up at the Flying Beaver last fall. I have firm orders for 3 when I head back to YVR in May.
Thanks again for the valuable input.
Good course. Half of the guys there were either current aerobatic pilots that compete, or current/former judges. We happened to have the chief judge (world) for glider aerobatics there as well. Small group. Maybe 10-12 of us.
Around 3 pm, we had an Extra 300L go up and do a sequence. It was interesting to look up and watch critically what is going on. It was interesting that the guy giving the course made a point of not measuring vertical lines or expecting faster roll rates due to specific airplane performance.
We have 3 events starting in May. The Swiss Nationals are in June. I'm hoping to get at least one event in before the nationals.
I wore my DeHavilland baseball cap that I picked up at the Flying Beaver last fall. I have firm orders for 3 when I head back to YVR in May.
Thanks again for the valuable input.
bmc
Re: Judges school
On the subject of roll rates ... I'd be fascinated to hear what your course said on the subject of judging snap rolls with monoplanes.
The problem for a new judge is that because monoplanes roll so fast, they can fake a snap roll with just ailerons, and a little speed.
Monoplane drivers that I have talked to about this say they try to exaggerate their pitch change - really move the nose up or down - to try to telegraph a contest snap roll.
The problem for a new judge is that because monoplanes roll so fast, they can fake a snap roll with just ailerons, and a little speed.
Monoplane drivers that I have talked to about this say they try to exaggerate their pitch change - really move the nose up or down - to try to telegraph a contest snap roll.
Re: Judges school
We went over this as we were reviewing the judging rules. It was very clear that a pronounced pitching of the airplane followed by the roll is what you are looking for.
A good friend of mine has an Extra 300L. He was an influence in me pursuing this. I just wrote him an email suggesting we go up and go through maneuvers. I'll make specific mention of the snap roll. Or as they say here and in the UK, a Flick roll.
The course was delivered in French, yet their were Swiss Germans who spoke better English than the French guy giving the course. So we jumping in and out of three languages during the day. Very helpful guys. 3-4 of them are existing judges that came along to the course. One of them is chief judge for the world glider aerobatics.
It's nice to join a new community. Small crowd over here and the country is small. So, any event, is up to a maximum of 5 hours away by car. I'll be working some of the local events before the nationals, of course as a scribe. Really looking forward to this.
It would be nice to find some video's online with some judging or commentary. Does anyone know if this exists?
bmc
A good friend of mine has an Extra 300L. He was an influence in me pursuing this. I just wrote him an email suggesting we go up and go through maneuvers. I'll make specific mention of the snap roll. Or as they say here and in the UK, a Flick roll.
The course was delivered in French, yet their were Swiss Germans who spoke better English than the French guy giving the course. So we jumping in and out of three languages during the day. Very helpful guys. 3-4 of them are existing judges that came along to the course. One of them is chief judge for the world glider aerobatics.
It's nice to join a new community. Small crowd over here and the country is small. So, any event, is up to a maximum of 5 hours away by car. I'll be working some of the local events before the nationals, of course as a scribe. Really looking forward to this.
It would be nice to find some video's online with some judging or commentary. Does anyone know if this exists?
bmc
bmc
