Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

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skybaron
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Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by skybaron » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:32 am

Always wanted to give aerobatics a go, anyone have any suggestions of a good place to start? (preferably the BC area or the US). Ideally i'd want to add the class 2 rating when it's all said and done.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:51 am

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by cdnpilot77 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:01 pm

I know it's the opposite coast, but big fan of his:

http://executiveflyers.com/mike_goulian/
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:19 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by skybaron » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:38 pm

Thanks for the links. I appreciate your responses.

Also, let's say I take a 10hr initial course in the US, on a decathlon perhaps -

Would TC honor that time in an "N" registered aircraft, for the prerequisite 10 hrs required to obtain a class 2 aerobatic instructor rating?
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:34 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:30 pm

I flew the S-2C at Attitude Aviation when I was down in California, and it was a great "bang for the buck"
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:49 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:33 pm

I was comparing the rate at Attitude ($244/hr for an S-2C) to Harv's of $347/hr for an S-2B. Gotta love 260 Horsepower and that 3 bladed Hartzell Claw! :D :D :D
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:27 pm

upon further investigation $347 looks to be the dual rate at Harvs which isn't too bad, but I still love the S2-C!
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:36 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:17 am

Harvs only posts the dual rate, and Attitude shows only the aircraft rate online. I checked and 0.9hrs in the S-2C with Mark Little and ground briefing cost me $471.08 CAD. It was worth it.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:30 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by P-40 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:41 pm

Hedley wrote:
S-2C at Attitude Aviation ... in California ... cheaper than anything in Canada
A few comments:

1) there are no S-2C's for rent in Canada AFAIK. I think there is one on the registry now. How he imported it, I have no idea. Transport told me the S-2C was "not eligible" for import into Canada, so I gave up and stuck to S-2B's which were already on the registry. I simply didn't have the energy to argue with Transport about the S-2C which had the same type certificate and production type certificate as the S-2B, and even if it didn't, there HAD to be some process to add a new type to the registry, otherwise no one could have ever imported any aircraft. I got tired of arguing with people who were always away on course or sick or vacation and gave up and stuck to S-2B's.

2) I have flown at Attitude Aviation in past years - great place, Rich and I have had a lot of fun - but "cheap" would never come to mind, to describe my experiences there. Looking at their web site, the S-2C rents for USD$244/hr and aerobatic instruction ranges from $65/hr to $110/hr, which adds up to a dual rate of USD$309/hr to USD$354/hr. I suspect the dual aerobatic instruction rate on the Pitts would run to the high range, so USD$350/hr would not be surprising.

3) There is very, very little aerobatic training available anywhere in Canada at any price, so I'm not sure what you're comparing the above rate, to. Harvsair has Citabria and Pitts S-2B, but I don't recall what their rates are. I doubt they're getting rich off whatever aerobatic training they offer, though, considering the short operating season.

There is indeed a Canadian registered S-2C (1998) here in southern Alberta.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by swervin » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:47 am

Do you offer Dual in your S2-B Hedley?
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:04 am

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:03 am

Hedley wrote: For example, the hammerhead. You should NOT be flying hammerheads until you are familiar with inverted spins (and recovery from them) because sooner or later you are going to be in one, esp if you have a metal prop (why?).
Agree with receiving spin training before doing hammerheads (or acro period), but not necessarily the sooner or later part. Depends on the pilot, I guess. It is true that newbie acro pilots (like new pilots in general) are very inventive at finding ways to screw up. I know someone with a Pitts S-1C who claimed that when attempting hammerheads, he found himself in a spin half the time. When I started learning them, I never understood how someone could so easily get into a spin. I have definitely done some ugly hammers during the learning process (and still torque some pretty good), but never came close to spinning my S-1S with a metal prop. Seems hard to get close to an accidental spin if you're half paying attention and don't so something extremely clumsy and silly with the elevator. The same is true of inadvertent spins in general, acro or not. I received a decent amount of advanced spin training before doing acro, so resulting from this, my instincts have always been to neutralize the controls as soon as a maneuver is blown and might get into spin territory.

So to see what all the fuss was about, one day I decided to try to force an inverted spin in the way I assumed someone would likely blow a hammerhead. During the hammer pivot I applied full forward stick and left full rudder and power in. Needless to say, the results were uncomfortable, but not startling. It would be hard to describe what resulted as a "spin". More like a buried, yet increasingly negative-loaded outside snap. Regardless, recovery is the same as for a spin.

I still have many years of an acro "career" ahead of me, but I haven't YET found myself in an accidental spin. Closest thing was snapping out of a push done too hard at too slow a speed...but there was no spin, since there was little rudder applied at the time. I find it amazing the lack of experience and understanding of spins among CFIs. Most seem to think that ANY time the ball is not centered as the airplane stalls, that a spin will result. Some think you are risking a spin by flying with your feet flat on the floor. I’ve never flown an airplane that will enter a spin without touching the rudder. They don’t seem to understand the difference between the ball being offcenter due to TOO MUCH rudder vs. TOO LITTLE. One is a potential spin producer, the other is not. This kind of rudder awareness will serve all pilots well, acro or not.

I’m not at all minimizing the importance of spin training. I’m a strong advocate of it…and not just the plain vanilla upright spins you might do in a 172. That barely scratches the surface of the subject. But with proper training and awareness, you’ll likely never NEED to recover from an accidental spin. But you’re not a competent pilot if you’re not comfortable with EVERY potential of an airplane’s flight envelope…as long as it can be performed safely. So purely in the interest of becoming a competent pilot, I don’t understand why more people don’t seek spin training. Probably the culture of fear being passed down by CFIs who themselves are scared of them. Too bad.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:25 am

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:40 am

Hedley wrote:
I haven't YET found myself in an accidental spin
Talk to me about your recovery procedure from tumbles.
The emphasis was on "YET". :wink: I don't do tumbles in my Pitts with my metal prop and lightened crank flange, so I obviously have no experience with the quickest method of recovery, nor recovery period. But I'm not aware of anything you can do in a Pitts that pulling power and centering the stick and rudder won't recover you from.

Sooner or later finding yourself in a spin may be true, depending on how far you advance into acro, but my comments were directed toward hammerheads in particular. After someone has reached a certain level of competance, and if they never spun out of hammerhead to begin with, I think it's likely they never will.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by cgzro » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:43 pm

I suppose you could let go of the controls and cut the power as a spin recovery technique in a single seat Pitts and they do recover after a few turns that way assuming the C of G is about right, but nowhere near as fast as a quick jab of opposite rudder at the same time. The inverted spin recovery is near instantaneous with a jab of rudder so I sure would not want to forgo that especially in the 1-2000 foot range where contest stuff happens ;)

What I find, and its probably similar to what you now realize, is that if you know where you are, then you know what is going to happen for a given control input so you naturally avoid pushing it over the edge. Take the push humpty for example .. if you get too slow and find yourself with a wack load of right aileron, with the rudder nearly fully deflected and pushing the crap out of it to get the nose over and ligned up .. well you can kind of feel when she breaks away on you and just the slightest reduction in forward pressure, or rudder and allowing a more bridged flight over the top, or some off heading yaw will stop the little beastie from doing a pretty little outside avalanche at the top ;)

Actually I find that practicing snaps really gives you a good feel for the plane and doing snaps at various power settings and speeds and stopping them bang on is one way to demonstrate your at least temporary mastery of the little beast. I think if you can control an inside and outside snap you have a pretty good understanding of whats going on as they really are just spins of various flavors.

One of my favorite things is an avalanche .. it seems so easy but its non trivial to get the snap to start and stop where you want and it looks oh so pretty with the smoke on, it feels like a really good golf swing and putting the ball within a few feet of the cup ;)


Cheers,

Peter
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:26 am

cgzro wrote:I suppose you could let go of the controls and cut the power as a spin recovery technique in a single seat Pitts and they do recover after a few turns that way assuming the C of G is about right, but nowhere near as fast as a quick jab of opposite rudder at the same time. The inverted spin recovery is near instantaneous with a jab of rudder so I sure would not want to forgo that especially in the 1-2000 foot range where contest stuff happens ;)
Not let go, but physically move the stick and rudder to the center after pulling power. It will recover any spin mode every time in a properly loaded Pitts. It really is great emergency recovery technique in the Pitts, since it doesn't require you to recognize the direction of the yaw, and whether your are positive or negative. If you can instantly recognize these things, then there's probably no need to invoke emergency recovery techniques, since you never lost situational awareness. But for the newbie acro pilot who finds him/herself in a confusing situtation, this is a good way to go. It actually doesn't take that much longer to recover compared to positive recovery inputs. Give it a try.

But of course I would never use this technique in a contest. :wink: Emergency spin recovery is a very different concept from competition/recreational/airshow spin recovery, where in many cases recovery will happen faster with power on than off. I've only ever done the neutral recovery during initial advanced spin training. As competition/recreations acro pilots, our flying will involve inputs with known outcomes, so we will know the positive recovery inputs to make before the maneuver is performed.

After getting into acro, I found it funny how in the minds of the uninitiated, inverted spins (especially a flat ones) are thought to be the ultimate "extreme" dangerous spin. Funny because they recover quite a bit faster than upright spins due to increased rudder area exposure to the relative wind.

Trivial debate…I disagree with the idea that snaps are really just horizontal spins…since in a spin, you stall BOTH wings before initiating the yaw that stalls one wing deeper than the other, causing rotation. With a proper snap, you don’t stall either wing, but pull just enough AOA so that when you apply rudder, one wing will stall, and one will remain flying. I think this is the critical distinction between the snap and spin. Aileron effects are also different in a snap vs. spin.
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Stallspin » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:24 pm

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:34 am

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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:52 am

Very true. Folks who aren't knowledgeable about acro tend to consider fighter jocks to be "ringers" for doing civie acro...even though the fighter jocks never had a need to develop rudder skills, are likely not current with spins, and definitely not up to snuff on advanced spins of all the possible flavors. And don't ask a fighter jock to teach you hammerheads or snaps. :wink: As mentioned, almost no relevance between jet and civie acro.

But of course, with conversion experience, most fighter jocks tend to do well in competition acro, since their ego and personality style won't allow otherwise. :mrgreen:
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Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Stallspin » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:01 pm

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