Aerobatic instructor rating done

[Raf]

After a hard and long preparation, I finally did the flight test. The weather was not the best for this kind of flight but that's work. So, I get the aerobatic instructor Class2 rating and will be able to teach it around Lachute, Qc.

Raf

[FenderManDan]

Congrats, pure awesome! You need to buy a Pitts or Yak now.

[Colonel Sanders]

Congratulations!

If you don't mind me asking, who did your aerobatic
instructor flight test? Only a handful of people in Canada
are qualified to do that. I was told there is no one in
Quebec or Alantic Region that can do them, but I'm
having trouble believing that.

What aircraft did you do it on?

PS re: Atlantic region ... I met a flight instructor recently
from the east coast. He said that TC had to fly an inspector
down from Ottawa to do his Aerobatic Flight Instructor
Rating flight test.

[Raf]

I did that on a C152 Aerobat. I flew to Gatineau to do the test with a TC inspector. Nobody in Qc and Atl exactly.

Raf

Pitts is the dream but Citabria maybe the next step

[Colonel Sanders]

Congratulations - it's not easy doing all the maneuvers
in CAR 421.91(3) in a Cessna Aerobat!

In fact, it's damned hard, with the low power-to-weight
ratio, slow roll rate, flat bottomed wing, no stick and no
inverted systems, which makes the negative G maneuvers -
slow roll, 1/2 rvs cu-8, etc - very hard to do well. It's very
tricky to do those maneuvers in an Aerobat. If you get a
chance to fly (eg) an Extra sometime, you will laugh at how
easy it is to fly aerobatics in it.

Nobody in Qc and Atl exactly

That's what I was told. Curiously, TC tells me that there
is absolutely no need for any designated pilot examiners
to do aerobatic instructor rides in Canada. I wonder why?

[jamesel]

"doing all the maneuvers in CAR 421.91(3) in a Cessna Aerobat!"

JOut of curiousity, did you do Hammerheads/Stall Turns on the Flight Test?

[Colonel Sanders]

Why not? Cessnas do very nice hammerheads. So does an F-104.

The T-33 does a nice tumble at low altitude. Heck, I know guys who
tailslide the L39. Your point is?

http://i.imgur.com/EhE4Z.jpg

[jamesel]

CS said "Why not? Cessnas do very nice hammerheads. So does an F-104.

The T-33 does a nice tumble at low altitude. Heck, I know guys who
tailslide the L39. Your point is?"

And yours?

Sigh....
CS, if you have had access to an Aerobat manual, and someone who can read it to you, and par-a-phrase it (that means use small words)

OK, seriously now, yeah shoulda been more specific for RAF....
You probably have noticed the Hammerhead/Stall Turn is not specifically mentioned in the list of approved manoeuvres in the Aerobat POH. Some examiners (generally TC, but not always) are of the "If it's not specifically allowed, it's prohibited" mindset, and others are a little more realistic. I was curious if this matter came up during the flight test. If you flew it, question answered & curiousity satisfied. If not, further question or PM to follow.

Since, like CS, I tend not to do my Instructor/Aerobatic Instructor renewal rides within the jurisdiction of the local TC offices, I do feel there is value in knowing the proclivities of the various regions/examiners. There is a slight chance my next renewal will be in an Aerobat on the left coast, or Ontario.

So does this line of questioning pass the CS standard ?

[Colonel Sanders]

You probably have noticed the Hammerhead/Stall Turn is not specifically mentioned in the list of approved manoeuvres in the Aerobat POH

Sure it is - a Stall Turn is an aerobatic kind of
Stall, which is approved for the Aerobat. Check
the POH. Does it very nicely.

What is NOT approved is a "whip stall". A hammerhead
aka stall turn is NOT a "whip stall".

Just to clarify: just as a "stall turn" is another name
for a hammerhead, a "whip stall" is another name for
a tailside.

use small words

Did the above posting satisfy your requirement for
monosyllabic words? I try to keep it simple for you
guys from Alberta

like CS, I tend not to do my Instructor/Aerobatic Instructor renewal rides within the jurisdiction of the local TC offices

Yeah, I was told it would be a waste of my time
to do a ride in Ontario Region. I don't mind much,
though - at least they stopped threatening the airshow
operators that they wouldn't get their SFOC if my
name was on it. And they stopped phoning airshow
organizers in foreign countries with similar threats,
too. A few years back I did an airshow in Ozark,
Alabama, and the organizer told me he got a call
from TC, telling him not to let me fly.

Childish, I know, but that's your tax dollars at work.

[jamesel]

You're stalled in a Hammerhead/Stall Turn? This is why I am more interested in what the examiner thought. C'mon, you've beaten that one to death in a briefing more than once, I'm sure. I use the Hammer to demo Stall Angle of Attack/Stick Position vs Stall Speed by not stalling in the pivot (always pivot towards the Pitot!) with zero IAS, and loading up on the down line with the increased speed/stick position/horn/buffet. Very mis-named - the wing's pretty well never stalled, in a decent plain vanilla one. About the only time I've gone past stall angle there is exiting the hammer to enter a knife edge spin. Hey, by that logic, since the Aerobat is legal for spins, that means I can push it into a knife edge spin, right?

Was gonna call bullshit on the 104 hammer, (Jet Pilots using rudder? ) but after a seconds thought you could probably get some wicked yaw out of the gyroscopics of J79 by pushing or pulling in sync with rudder - was that how they did it? Roll-yaw coupling could certainly be a bitch at those speeds, though.

[Colonel Sanders]

Was gonna call bullshit on the 104 hammer

Why would I care what you think? There are plenty of Sabre
pilots that went through the OTU at Cold Lake in the early
60's who can tell you about doing a Stall Turn in a -104 with
an instructor pilot named Boyd.

[jamesel]

Why would I care what you think?

No reason whatsoever..........

[Raf]

The question about maneuver in the POH didn't came on during the flight test. The only mention I did is that in my booklet I didn't insert the Hammerhead because the figure is not in the POH, That was ok for TC, no more. Yes the C152 do beautiful hammerhead, 50KIAS at the top and it roll well. The C152 does not like tail slide (is that the name?). My point of view is you can do any figure that is within the limit of the ac (load factor and stress), and within your limit and acknowledge.

Raf

[cgzro]

Yes the C152 do beautiful hammerhead, 50KIAS at the top and it roll well. The C152 does not like tail slide (is that the name?). My point of view is you can do any figure that is within the limit of the ac (load factor and stress), and within your limit and acknowledge

Most aircraft are not stressed for backwards flight. Its very hard on the control surfaces and if you don't hold the controls very tightly they can be damaged even in planes that are designed to go backwards. A hammerhead if screwed up of course can cause you to go backwards but as you say if you fly it correctly there is no problem. I saw a biplane once that had a particularly nasty tail slide that broke its rudder in half, one side went right, the other side went left ... very effective airbrake.
If you do end up sliding out of a hammerhead full elevator and neutral hard everything else is probably the quickest safest solution as it gets the heavy end pointed down as quickly as possible.

[Colonel Sanders]

if you don't hold the controls very tightly they can be damaged even in planes that are designed to go backwards

A couple years back, a guy died in a Skybolt down south
because of this.

Tailslides and torque rolls are in a different league than
a hammerhead. Biggest problem with the hhead is that
people let it go on it's back during the pivot - not enough
forward stick for the metal prop - and you end up in the
prettiest inverted spin.

I think the contest people call that maneuver the "hammerspin"

[jamesel]

Thanks Raf, appreciate it, & Congratulations on your new rating! Enjoy!

[cgzro]

I think the contest people call that maneuver the "hammerspin"

Yeah, usually what happens is the person gets on their back a bit and you see 1/4 of an inverted snap before they get the power off and come down 90 degrees off heading been there .. done that .. eventually you clue in to not try to fix it if you get the wings out of the vertical plane and just get off the power before it goes south on you.