Extra 200 or 300L

[LousyFisherman]

How are decathlons for cross country?

The problem is useful load. The Decathalon's useful load is only slightly more than the C150, 560 pounds, IIRC.
Enough for 2 people, but not enough for two people, camping equipment and beer

It does handle grass nicely though.

LF

[Osiris]

I have seen somebody (Brendon?) flying a yellow/white 300L around here. Beautiful aircraft.

A bit late to the party, but that's me. (The yellow Extra has gone to a new home in Boundary Bay.) If you've got any questions on the Extra, feel free to PM me and I'll give you my e-mail address; I'm not on Avcanada much. I've flown the mid-wing 300 as well as the 300L and I'm currently flying the 330SC. Not sure if you're still following this thread, but I'll add what I can.

The attractiveness of the 200 is the IO360, a smaller, lighter, more cost efficient engine... I thought it could be more balanced one for the mixed use - flying around 75% and learning acro 25%.

I'd stay away from the Extra 200. It was intended for the European market (and their fuel prices), and you really pay a performance price for marginal financial savings. The 200 isn't any better for general aviation use than the 300 is, and for aerobatics, you're probably better off with a 2 seat Pitts, Giles 202, etc... If you're going with an Extra, stick to the 300, I think Jerzy put it best: Don't kid yourself that you will be happy with 200. It's possible, but only until you fly 300. You will hate the 200 after that.

A problem with doing aerobatics with all the monoplanes that you need to check first, is: do the wing tanks need to be empty for acro?

As mentioned, this is a big problem with the 300/300L. If you're in an aerobatic box, over an airport, it's not such a big deal. In Germany, aerobatics is almost always done in a box at an airport, and although the Extra is popular in the North American market, it's only in the new designs (330, etc...) that they've addressed the necessity of fuel for transit time.

With that said, plenty of people have found that they can get away with about half fuel in the wing tanks in the 300L without damaging them (provided you don't have the long range tanks, then you want absolutely nothing in them). But you're operating outside of what's prescribed by the POH if you do this.

...so specialized that it is not really enjoyable or practical for anything else outside of aerobatics?

The Extra's not bad as a cross country aircraft. It actually has a fair bit of storage space behind the rear seat (more space than you would think). After about 30 minutes, sitting directly on the seat gets uncomfortable, but a cushion is an easy fix. It's pretty quick as a cross country machine, and if you're flying a longer distance you can really lean it out at altitude. The drop in manifold pressure higher up is surprisingly low for a normally aspirated engine, and my guess would be that the shape of the air intake causes a bit of compression. With that said, you don't want to take it everywhere; I'd avoid landing on grass or gravel with the Extra, and a strip less than 2000 ft can feel pretty short.

Andre Lortie told me the mid-wing extra 300 has very poor forward visibility. This bothers some people.

There's definitely less visibility in the mid-wing, but if you can comfortably land the 300L, landing the mid-wing 300 isn't so bad. If you're not fairly comfortable landing the 300L, you're not going to enjoy landing the mid-wing. If your home field has a really narrow strip, you'd probably want to stick to the 300L.

Two seat, yes. And with a blend of day-to-day, and good but not unlimited aerobatic.

The Extra doesn't really sound like it's what you're looking for. As SSU, Colonel Sanders, Tiggermoth and others have mentioned, a Super Decathlon will probably best meet your needs. Even if you were looking to focus on aerobatics and get into competition, I'd recommend you get a Super Decathlon to learn tailwheel and basic aerobatics before moving on to something like an Extra a year or two later. I got started with a Super Decathlon, and unless you're looking for something that's really fast (sounds like you're not) I don't think you'd regret it. If your budget allows for a brand new Super Decathlon, they've made quite a few improvements recently, I believe both the HP and payload have been increased.

[akoch]

Osiris,

thank you very much for such a comprehensive response. It clarified a large number of points, which even this long and excellent thread has not touched on. Your insights are great.

I think I am a bit confused though, or I misunderstood you. If I read it correctly, you are suggesting the Extra 300L is not an all-around airplane (though does have acceptable x-country capacity in your view), and it would not be your choice to do aerobatics with as well. So how would you define the Extra's niche then? I probably misread you, sorry.

[bmc]

I'm late in posting. Is this an option?

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 252713.htm

[Osiris]

I think I am a bit confused though, or I misunderstood you. If I read it correctly, you are suggesting the Extra 300L is not an all-around airplane (though does have acceptable x-country capacity in your view), and it would not be your choice to do aerobatics with as well. So how would you define the Extra's niche then? I probably misread you, sorry.

The niche of the Extra 300L is definitely aerobatics, it's just not an aircraft I'd recommend to someone who's brand new to aerobatics. If the majority of the flying you've done is in GA aircraft, and especially if you haven't flown much tail wheel, you don't really want to start out in an Extra/Suhkoi/Edge/MX, or even a Pitts. A Citabria or Decathlon is the best way to ensure you develop the energy awareness and stick/rudder skill set you want before progressing to a more capable aircraft.

[Colonel Sanders]

That sounds good, but if you aren't really interested
in being the next Sean Tucker, just buy an Extra 300.

Pussycat to land, easy to fly acro in it. You won't be
able to jump into a lesser aircraft and fly acro in it, but
then again, you're not the next Sean Tucker, are you?

Extra is an old man's airplane. If you can afford one,
get one! Get two!

There are two types of acro pilots. One type is the
next Sean Tucker, who can fly anything. You don't
need to be the next Sean Tucker. The other type can
only fly his airplane - and I mean his airplane, not
even a similar one of the same type. There is no
shame in being the latter. We could use a lot more
of them, frankly. You really don't need to be the
next Sean Tucker to fly acro.

[akoch]

what makes an airplane "an old man's aeroplane"? How do we categorize which is which?

To me Extra or Sukhoi looked more like a sports aeroplane, less of a toy.

[Colonel Sanders]

what makes an airplane "an old man's aeroplane"?

Is that a trick question? The people who own it

I don't go to contests - their urbane participants are
far too litigious for my rural taste - but in Sportsman,
you will find many older gentlemen flying Extras,
struggling unsuccessfully to stay in the box and scoring
at the bottom. Double facepalm.

But who cares. As long as they don't hurt themselves
or their airplane, more acro is better acro.

[akoch]

flying Extras,
struggling unsuccessfully to stay in the box and scoring
at the bottom.

Is this because the Extra needs more space than a Pitts, or is it pilot issue?

[Colonel Sanders]

In first year university calculus, we derive that
at a constant acceleration (G), the radius of
a turn (either horizontal or vertical) is a function
of the velocity SQUARED.

So, talk to me about what happens when you
double your airspeed, and try to fly the same
maneuver. There's a reason guys are flying
+/-12 G's.

IIRC Red Bull had a +12G limit on the 1/2 cuban
eight reversal to avoid people really over-doing
it ... until they figured out it was faster to turn
flat, which resulted in a very dangerous, very
high G turn at very low altitude. I mean, what
could possibly go wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkwKqD9ylLo

There was a guy at Sarnia a few years back in
a Sea Fury that didn't have this figured out. He's
dead now.

[cgzro]

Extra is a beautiful plane but a bit of a robot... Not much personality,goes where you point it ..now.. Not hard to fly but hard to fly very well. Very slippery and can get you into a corner where you need a lot of G to recover. Generally you need to be very wealthy to own one and that means older.

[Colonel Sanders]

Get one these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yMXwIT35wk