The 'Mexican game': How Air Transat misled passengers and aviation officials

[wimyvr]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/flair-n ... -1.4096090

[rigpiggy]

sounds like a certain operator who flight planned hi speed cruise speeds, with long range cruise fuel flows

[Commonwealth]

So as far as I can tell there were no rules broken and a safe operation was carried out.

Is this news?

[7ECA]

Reminds me of a while back when that Sunwing flight landed at CYXX from somewhere in Mexico, due to weather or delays at YVR and needed additional fuel. Brought quite the little tempest in a tea cup, media attention wise.

[av8ts]

So as far as I can tell there were no rules broken and a safe operation was carried out.

Is this news?

When United had that guy dragged off the plane no rules were broken and it was a safe operation but it was definitely news. There is another part of aviation called customer service.

[rookiepilot]

So as far as I can tell there were no rules broken and a safe operation was carried out.

Is this news?

When United had that guy dragged off the plane no rules were broken and it was a safe operation but it was definitely news. There is another part of aviation called customer service.

That's called the United Game. Bit more serious.

[CpnCrunch]

So as far as I can tell there were no rules broken and a safe operation was carried out.

So is it legal to deliberately underestimate the EET? The article says it's legal to file a flight plan you don't intend to follow, which is true, but doesn't the original flight plan have to have IFR legal fuel?

[Axial Flow]

I believe it is called "filing short"...like when you want to go from Winnipeg to Thompson but can't carry enough gas. File to Norway House then miss and go to Thompson...I can use other locales but this one I hold dear.

[CpnCrunch]

I believe it is called "filing short"...like when you want to go from Winnipeg to Thompson but can't carry enough gas. File to Norway House then miss and go to Thompson...I can use other locales but this one I hold dear.

Yeah, that would be legal, but the article says they filed to their final destination even though they didn't have enough fuel for that route, which seems a bit weird. Why would a pilot put their name as PIC to a flight plan with bogus EET? I can't find any of the flights on flightaware, so it's hard to know what actually happened. I'm guessing they did file short or something like that.

[Sidebar]

TC AIM 3.16.8 provides for a RIF (refile in-flight to a revised destination) comment in Item 18 of the ICAO flight plan. This allows operators to file short of ultimate destination but refile if they have sufficient fuel while en route.

[CpnCrunch]

TC AIM 3.16.8 provides for a RIF (refile in-flight to a revised destination) comment in Item 18 of the ICAO flight plan. This allows operators to file short of ultimate destination but refile if they have sufficient fuel while en route.

Yes of course, but as mentioned in my last comment this apparently didn't apply here ("if they have sufficient fuel while en route"), at least according to CBC, but I'm somewhat skeptical.

[valleyboy]

Initially it's a mute point because operations would have nothing to do with booking another carrier. Sales makes stupid assumptions and usually it falls into operation's lap after the sh1t has already hit the fan. I have seen this and been involved in it some many times. Commercial ops is the bane of a pilot's and an operation department's life. The companies can usually ultimately be blamed because you get what you pay for. Commercial ops is usually run by some very inexperienced people who are pushed around by the sales department.

I'm sure that email was just the chief pilot trying to help the other company out and keep them from falling into the same pit fall that likely had already been experienced. I think there should be a new media category. News reporting covering news media and holding their feet to the fire. News reporting is no longer that but 90% speculation and opinion and 10% news.

[ahramin]

Does Flair have in flight reclear procedures in their ops manual?

[Back2Final]

I remember the days of Air Transat L101's inbound from Europe to CYYZ with no gas. Initial flight plan to CYUL, refile if the winds were light and show up at CYYZ on fumes during rush hour/ construction/ thunderstorms . Lots of fun, the other airlines would take delays as we fit these" low on fuel'' guys in . Went to Punta Cana with them a few years back and experienced the shell game first hand. At least I was warned that the delay would probably happen ( a buddy did the same hotel package ) so I spent the extra $50 for a late check out so wasn't too bad. The representative at the hotel lying to me was hard to take but that's they way it is. You pay the low fares you take your chances.

[FADEC]

Years ago, Wardair operated a 727. They were invited not to bring it back to LHR when they flamed out taxiing in!

[aerodude]

Flew Athens to Montreal with Transat last year on one their A330. After boarding, pilot tells us they have to do a fuel stop in Glasgow... I didn't mind but other passengers rightfully complained why weren't they told at the gate before boarding, so they could advise their families waiting for them destination. Guess it happens more often than I thought. Not the crews fault but I'm surprised their marketing/pr people didn't know this would happen with the media.

Then again people will book again if it's 5$ cheaper.

[Siddley Hawker]

I believe it is called "filing short"...like when you want to go from Winnipeg to Thompson but can't carry enough gas. File to Norway House then miss and go to Thompson...I can use other locales but this one I hold dear.

Yep. Before no alternate IFR became the rule, I've done it. Palm Beach - Minneapolis comes to mind. I forget what I filed as a destination, Green Bay?? with MSP as the alternate. Winds were less than forecast so we overflew the destination and went to the alternate, which was the desired destination anyway.

[BE20 Driver]

It just keeps getting worse...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-tra ... -1.4143047

Turns out there were no entertainment or vegan meal options. The cookies probably had gluten too.

Quick someone call Gabor.

[ahramin]

I wonder why CBC hasn't simply pulled the data and posted the statistics on what percentage of the longer routes have a tech stop. Simple research and would be easy to confront the airlines with.

[fish4life]

No vegan options oh the horror....

[Black_Tusk]

Do any airlines have vegan options? I'm not vegan so I never really looked into that...

Funny thing though my parents flew on Flair to Mexico last year and they said it was great. Aside from no entertainment system (which they could care less about) they said the flight was nice. Happy FA's, clean aircraft, decent legroom etc.

[rookiepilot]

Less about the extra stop, oh well, more about the serial lying that goes on between airline staff and their customers.

In no other industry would this be tolerated but complain and you get kicked off.

I would hate to work in the industry and be told to lie. I'd refuse.

[pacman007]

Transat needs new aircraft or just stop service all together! I booked a DIRECT FLIGHT from Toronto to Rome and as soon as we were airborne the capt announced a stop in Shannon Ireland!! That was 7 years ago and have never flown them again! looks like things haven't changed a bit!

[fish4life]

Transat needs new aircraft or just stop service all together! I booked a DIRECT FLIGHT from Toronto to Rome and as soon as we were airborne the capt announced a stop in Shannon Ireland!! That was 7 years ago and have never flown them again! looks like things haven't changed a bit!

To be fair in aviation lingo direct just means same plane / flight number. Non-stop means 1 leg

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Flew Athens to Montreal with Transat last year on one their A330. After boarding, pilot tells us they have to do a fuel stop in Glasgow... I didn't mind but other passengers rightfully complained why weren't they told at the gate before boarding, so they could advise their families waiting for them destination. Guess it happens more often than I thought. Not the crews fault but I'm surprised their marketing/pr people didn't know this would happen with the media.

Then again people will book again if it's 5$ cheaper.

I dont know about your specific case, but here is a plausible explanation. The majority of Air Transat's A330s have a MTOW of 233 tonnes. A couple of their older A330-300s have a MTOW of 215 or 217 tonnes. These are normally used on shorter high density routes such as YYZ-LGW and YUL-CDG.
Athens is only done with high gross machines. If ever one of those machines that was scheduled to leave for Athens became U/S shortly before the flight and had to be replaced, and the only machine available on the tarmac at the time was a 215 or 217 tonne machine, they might have decided to use it for that one flight. It probably would make YUL-ATH direct easbound but would be hard pressed to make the west-bound leg direct, unless loads and winds were light.
We have a similar situation with our A310s. Some are 157 tonne machines and others are 164 tonne machines. The Rome flights are only done with the 164 tonne machines because the 157 tonne machines are hard pressed to do the westbound flight. Is has happened that circumstances forced AT to send a 157 tonne 310 to Rome.....