Equipment required for VFR

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AirFrame
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by AirFrame »

CFR wrote:I agree the "need" for a timepiece in VFR flight is much diminished if you aren't doing ground speed checks, but if you aren't it's likely due to having a GPS most of which display the time. I can think of at least two VFR circumstances where you need to know the time , one if you have encountered stronger than anticipated head winds and need to update your flight plan arrival time and for a cross border flight where you need to know your crossing times (admittedly not to the minute).
To be fair though, neither situation requires that you know the *time* in flight. If you get stronger than anticipated headwinds, your GPS will update your ETE and ETA. It knows the time, but you don't need to. Does that count as having a timepiece? I guess the question is moot as the GPS will display the time for you somewhere if you ask it to. On a cross-border flight, you only need to know your border crossing time when you file your EAPIS. Then you just plan your takeoff time to make it work, if you're off a bit due to winds nobody will care.
Besides without the big fancy watch with all the extra buttons, dials and time zones how is anyone going to know you're a pilot?
Darn it, you're right... We *do* need a timepiece...
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by AirFrame »

MrWings wrote:How are people calculating fuel remaining?
I have a fuel flow meter that measures actual fuel used and gives me the total burned. Knowing what I had at takeoff, I know fuel remaining. It's more accurate than the resistive float senders that are in the fuel tanks...
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

AirFrame wrote:...
To be fair though, neither situation requires that you know the *time* in flight.
Position reports to FSS, expected arrival times at an MF airport - they should all be reported as the whole time, not the lazy "minutes ago" or "minutes from now" thing.

I'm really not buying into this new concept of "I don't need to know the time while flying".
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

When reporting entering an ATZ or MF "minutes to" is much more useful than whole time because everyone's time piece may not be exactly the same. It is also, IMHO a more user friendly piece of information as most pilots tend to naturally think in "X minutes to go until I get to sumplace" not, "I will arrive at sumplace at XX:XX"
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

It's everyone's responsibility to make sure their timepiece is set correctly. That's why the equipment regulations require a timepiece and not a stopwatch.

There's no problem with hearing and interpreting "EXPECT SUMSPOT 53" because, of course, everyone knows at how many minutes past the hour they themselves expect to arrive at sumspot. And they can do that because they all carry a time piece. As required by regulation. And they use it.

Unless you prefer "EXPECT SUMSPOT WHEN MY BLADDER IS THREE QUARTERS FULL".
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote:It's everyone's responsibility to make sure their timepiece is set correctly. That's why the equipment regulations require a timepiece and not a stopwatch.

There's no problem with hearing and interpreting "EXPECT SUMSPOT 53" because, of course, everyone knows at how many minutes past the hour they themselves expect to arrive at sumspot. And they can do that because they all carry a time piece. As required by regulation. And they use it.

Unless you prefer "EXPECT SUMSPOT WHEN MY BLADDER IS THREE QUARTERS FULL".
It's just quicker and easier to interpret "5 minutes" rather than a time, if you're in the circuit or about to take off and trying to figure out whether the incoming dash 8 or whatever is going to be a problem. Most pilots and FSS seem to use "x minutes", and it makes things much easier.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

Now twelve people who hear your five minutes call all have to note the time as well, and do the arithmetic that you didn't do, so two minutes later they know you're now expected in three minutes.

And hard luck on any of them if they were busy at the time: "Hey, how long ago was that five minute call? I couldn't check the time when I heard it..."

Lazy.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote:Now twelve people who hear your five minutes call all have to note the time as well, and do the arithmetic that you didn't do, so two minutes later they know you're now expected in three minutes.

And hard luck on any of them if they were busy at the time: "Hey, how long ago was that five minute call? I couldn't check the time when I heard it..."

Lazy.
A time in minutes past the hour isn't very useful for <= 5 mins as it will be up to 40% off. But if that's the way you prefer it, I'll be certain to make that call when you announce that you're in the circuit with me.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

If you need to assume that I'm always in the circuit with you for you to be motivated to do it properly I'm happy for you to do that.

Scenario: it's 12:17. An aircraft calls 20 minutes out. Four minutes later another aircraft calls 12 minutes out. Seven minutes after that an aircraft announces 5 minutes out. You didnt bring a watch because someone on AvCanada said they were optional, but you think you'll need to pee really really badly in about fifteen minutes.

Alternatively they could have announced arriving at 37, 33, and 33. And you could look at your watch.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote:If you need to assume that I'm always in the circuit with you for you to be motivated to do it properly I'm happy for you to do that.

Scenario: it's 12:17. An aircraft calls 20 minutes out. Four minutes later another aircraft calls 12 minutes out. Seven minutes after that an aircraft announces 5 minutes out. You didnt bring a watch because someone on AvCanada said they were optional, but you think you'll need to pee really really badly in about fifteen minutes.

Alternatively they could have announced arriving at 37, 33, and 33. And you could look at your watch.
What's the point of announcing 20 minutes out unless you're a 747 landing at an uncontrolled airport and everyone needs to get the hell out of the circuit? Do you train your students to keep a written tally of the estimated times of all the incoming traffic?
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

If I hear information over the radio that's relevant to my flight, and it's too much to remember, then yes, I write it down. Trying to keep track of arrivals that might conflict with mine is easier if you just tell me your ETA, and I tell you mine.

Students should learn what the right thing to do is, and why. If they later want to get lazy that's not an instructor's problem.
What's the point of announcing 20 minutes out
We had a whole thread about early announcements to FSS at MF airports, sometimes 30 minutes out.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote:Position reports to FSS
If you're calling them, they know the time of your position report.
expected arrival times at an MF airport
Your GPS will tell you the expected arrival time, you don't need to know the current time.
they should all be reported as the whole time, not the lazy "minutes ago" or "minutes from now" thing.
Personally I report distance from airport, because that's what someone else looking for me will need to find me in the sky. "I'll arrive at the airport at 14:20Z" is a royal pain in the arse for anyone else... They have to find their timepiece, figure out what current Zulu time is, figure out how long it is from now until 14:20Z, and then estimate my speed and work out how far away from the airport I am. By which point i'll be on the ground.
I'm really not buying into this new concept of "I don't need to know the time while flying".
If nothing else, a blind unwillingness to look facts in the face will see you through.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

If you're making a VFR position report to FSS then it may have been three minutes, six minutes, or longer ago that you were OVERHEAD SUMSPOT lake. Six minutes to get a clear channel, activate a DRCO etc. Or maybe 30 minutes over featureless terrain until you're in radio range again. As such, the international standard for position reports includes the "time over". No need for AvCanada to reinvent the wheel or try to improve it.

And no, for arrivals, I don't really care how far out you are so I know where to look. A position report is nice, but I also want to know what time you're arriving - which is why that's what the CFS says you should provide. How difficult is this, people? Why does everyone want to riff their own content??

Just do what the book says you should.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by AirFrame »

CpnCrunch wrote:What's the point of announcing 20 minutes out unless you're a 747 landing at an uncontrolled airport and everyone needs to get the hell out of the circuit? Do you train your students to keep a written tally of the estimated times of all the incoming traffic?
And what's the point of announcing you're 20 *minutes* out anyway, rather than 10 miles or 5 miles? It's your job approaching to fit in to the traffic in the circuit. And don't the CAR's require a report 5 miles out for an MF? Why not minutes?
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

CAR 602.101:

Section 602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

( a ) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft’s position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command’s arrival procedure intentions;


This is neither discretionary nor difficult. Every PPL gets tested on this stuff, so if you don't know it now, it's because you forgot. And If you know it and don't do it, you're lazy. Just give the estimated time of landing, at least five minutes before you enter the MF zone, but more if you wish. A position report is not a substitute, nor is your estimated remaining enroute time.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote:and estimated time of landing
It doesn't say what format that estimate should be. "5 minutes" is a perfectly valid estimated time of landing, and that's what's mostly used in the real world. But if you want to get a job at an FSS and file a CADOR for everyone, be my guest.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

You can tell everyone else it means that you want it to mean, and you can tell everyone else it's ok to copy what others do just because that's what others do. I know you're too smart to kid yourself.

I break just as many rules as you do, probably more. But I'm honest about it with myself, and I try to do better.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

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photofly wrote:This is neither discretionary nor difficult. Every PPL gets tested on this stuff, so if you don't know it now, it's because you forgot.
You make a good point. I fully admit to having forgotten this. To some extent, i'll attribute it to the lower mainland airspace, where you're hardly more than 20 miles from another airport at any one time... And for me, calling up 5 minutes before entering the MF area means calling up 20 miles out. Flying from Abbotsford to Chilliwack, I would need to be broadcasting my intentions on the YCW MF before leaving the zone at YXX.
And If you know it and don't do it, you're lazy. Just give the estimated time of landing, at least five minutes before you enter the MF zone, but more if you wish.
I guess a *lot* of pilots need re-training, myself included. I have not, in the 20 years i've been flying, heard anyone estimate a landing time on frequency.
A position report is not a substitute, nor is your estimated remaining enroute time.
And yet, this is what people in my region do. Remember, i'm talking weekend VFR pilots, not commercial pilots going cross-country.

When GPS' with ETE, ETA, etc. weren't invented yet, I understand why a clock would be useful. Fuel checks, ground speed checks, etc. all make perfect sense. But we've got better equipment in our aircraft now that have changed the playing field. We have magnetometers that are a lot more accurate than whiskey compasses, we've got GPS' that give us much better SA than we ever had with maps, and we have transponders and (soon) ADS-B to help avoid other traffic. Aircraft no longer have dial clocks on the panel, many don't have discrete digital ones either... With a GPS they are a few clicks away if needed.

I'll try broadcasting an ETA 5 minutes from the zone/20 miles out from the airport on my next flight to an MF. This is something i'm surprised Nanaimo hasn't picked up on... They're usually the first ones to criticize when you make an error on frequency.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by Cat Driver »

I understand that the regulator is going to make a new change in the regulations.

" Compliance to the regulations will in the future be at the discretion of the pilot to make it easier for the mentally lazy to do what ever they feel like at any given time. "
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by CFR »

Cat Driver wrote:I understand that the regulator is going to make a new change in the regulations.

" Compliance to the regulations will in the future be at the discretion of the pilot to make it easier for the mentally lazy to do what ever they feel like at any given time. "
Question on pilot test:

"Describe yourself in three words."

Answer "lazy"

To clarify I use a watch as well as the time on the GPS and the clock in the instrument panel. Bladder is only used for backup.

Agree that border crossing time is a 15 minute window, however if you are having boarder security meet you at an airport, they appreciate you being on time.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

CFR wrote: "Describe yourself in three words."

Answer "lazy"
Just awesome :-)
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

There is no regulation that states the only way to report is with a 4 figure time. This is one example where I think practicality should win over pedantry.

My personal experience has been that when I am getting close to the destination airport I look at the gps or tablet and what ever number is the ETE is what I use for my call, with a possible adjustment if I have a fast descent or non direct routing etc etc.

When somebody else calls and says they are X minutes back I compare that time with my current ETE readout. If the call was more than X I will probably be ahead of them and if it is less than I will plan to follow them.

As always this is only one data point which may or may not be accurate and so all of the other aspects of good airmanship will also be used to sequence me into the arrival, including of course a keen look out for pilots who are not talking at all.


Pretty much every one I know does the same thing.

Bottom line there are plenty of common egregious examples of poor airmanship that deserved to be called out. Not reporting your arrival time in 4 figures is not IMO worth complaining about
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by ahramin »

HiFlyChick wrote:
ahramin wrote:
photofly wrote:I note the up-time and down-time for every flight, in order to put them in the journey log. Don't you?
I note the times, but don't transcribe them into the Journey Log. Am I supposed to be doing that?
Why on earth wouldn't you put them in - do you just leave the columns that say "Up" and "Down" blank?
The JL can act as a legal backup to your logbook when you are proving your night hours...
Yes, I just leave them blank. I suppose if I was worried about needing a legal backup for my personal logbook to prove my night time then I would record times, but I cannot imagine who or why I would be trying to prove anything to or about.

Actually in my personal log I haven't logged my time as day or night in years. I just log it all as flight time. Is there any requirement to log day and night time in separate columns in a personal log?
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:There is no regulation that states the only way to report is with a 4 figure time.
I agree. Minutes past the hour is usually unambiguous, and requires only two digits. That is also international standard practice.
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Re: Equipment required for VFR

Post by photofly »

ahramin wrote: Is there any requirement to log day and night time in separate columns in a personal log?
There is a requirement to record whether any given flight was day or night. Separate columns is one way to do that. Or you could note day or night next to each entry.


401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;
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