Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

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single_swine_herder
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Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by single_swine_herder »

Who knows?

Is this more baffle-gab, or will something actually proceed through the regulatory process?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ca ... content=V1
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Rockie
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie »

"What's the rush" says John McKenna (President of ATAC) without any sense of irony.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by DanWEC »

He doesn't sound in the slightest like he has any concern whatsoever for pilot welfare or the safety of the travelling public. What a piece of work.

Anyhow, I'm glad the regs are proceeding finally. What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rowdy »

The 12hr change is simply to provide an illusion of safety to the public. Most if not all Air operators already have the 12hr rule in their COM or Contract. Total. Farce.

The duty regs need the work. I have ZERO faith in Garneau and even less now in Mckenna.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Meatservo »

DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Isn't that 4 more hours?
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by confusedalot »

canada is approaching the 20th century? wow. how long to the 21st?
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by DanWEC »

Meatservo wrote:
DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Isn't that 4 more hours?

HA! Correct. I fly planes. :)

Point still stands however. Those who are rip roaring drunk upon report have issues other than mistiming their last drink.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by AuxBatOn »

If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Black_Tusk »

What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack »

Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack »

Double post
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie »

leftoftrack wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.
Everybody is responsible for safety, but none more so than a Transport Canada.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Heliian »

AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.

The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.

perceived safety.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar »

The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie »

Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar »

Rockie wrote:
Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

Roar wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.
Just because we all have pilots licences does not mean we all work the same style of jobs. You are not fatigued because you have been at work 14 hours, you are fatigued because of WHAT you did at work for those 14 hours. Theres days I do a flight at 7am, come back and surf AvCanada all day, and do another flight at 1900. Other days I spend 10+ hours in the air. Sometimes I'm tired afterwards, sometimes I'm looking for more. It depends on my loads, the weather, how much help I get, etc. As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by AuxBatOn »

Heliian wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.

The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.

perceived safety.
If you had the same amont of pilots flying drunk than flying sober, you'd see that this stat would likely not be true.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie »

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
Yes you can. Humans are humans, and we are all subject to the same circadian rhythm and fatigue influences as the next guy regardless of what we're doing for a living. F&DT regulations have to be written according to science which they are on the cusp of being. In cases where fatigue is present despite the regulations we have CAR 602.02. There cannot be rules exempting pilots allowing them to go beyond the regulations because 1. we are the worst judges of when we are fatigued, and 2. it is open for abuse.

By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack »

By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do
Not sure that's true Rockie

http://www.cvse.ca/national_safety_code ... _Rules.pdf

70hrs in 7days or 120 in 14 days can drive for 13 of a 14hr duty day, no need for an employer to supply a hotel.........which one of those is more restrictive?
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