Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
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- single_swine_herder
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Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Who knows?
Is this more baffle-gab, or will something actually proceed through the regulatory process?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ca ... content=V1
Is this more baffle-gab, or will something actually proceed through the regulatory process?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ca ... content=V1
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
"What's the rush" says John McKenna (President of ATAC) without any sense of irony.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
He doesn't sound in the slightest like he has any concern whatsoever for pilot welfare or the safety of the travelling public. What a piece of work.
Anyhow, I'm glad the regs are proceeding finally. What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Anyhow, I'm glad the regs are proceeding finally. What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
The 12hr change is simply to provide an illusion of safety to the public. Most if not all Air operators already have the 12hr rule in their COM or Contract. Total. Farce.
The duty regs need the work. I have ZERO faith in Garneau and even less now in Mckenna.
The duty regs need the work. I have ZERO faith in Garneau and even less now in Mckenna.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Isn't that 4 more hours?DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
- confusedalot
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
canada is approaching the 20th century? wow. how long to the 21st?
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Meatservo wrote:Isn't that 4 more hours?DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
HA! Correct. I fly planes.
Point still stands however. Those who are rip roaring drunk upon report have issues other than mistiming their last drink.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.
12 hours is in line with industry standard.
12 hours is in line with industry standard.
Going for the deck at corner
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.
A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.
A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Everybody is responsible for safety, but none more so than a Transport Canada.leftoftrack wrote:If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.
A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.
12 hours is in line with industry standard.
The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.
perceived safety.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.Rockie wrote:I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- Redneck_pilot86
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Just because we all have pilots licences does not mean we all work the same style of jobs. You are not fatigued because you have been at work 14 hours, you are fatigued because of WHAT you did at work for those 14 hours. Theres days I do a flight at 7am, come back and surf AvCanada all day, and do another flight at 1900. Other days I spend 10+ hours in the air. Sometimes I'm tired afterwards, sometimes I'm looking for more. It depends on my loads, the weather, how much help I get, etc. As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.Roar wrote:And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.Rockie wrote:I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
If you had the same amont of pilots flying drunk than flying sober, you'd see that this stat would likely not be true.Heliian wrote:I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.
12 hours is in line with industry standard.
The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.
perceived safety.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Yes you can. Humans are humans, and we are all subject to the same circadian rhythm and fatigue influences as the next guy regardless of what we're doing for a living. F&DT regulations have to be written according to science which they are on the cusp of being. In cases where fatigue is present despite the regulations we have CAR 602.02. There cannot be rules exempting pilots allowing them to go beyond the regulations because 1. we are the worst judges of when we are fatigued, and 2. it is open for abuse.Redneck_pilot86 wrote:As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed
Not sure that's true RockieBy the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do
http://www.cvse.ca/national_safety_code ... _Rules.pdf
70hrs in 7days or 120 in 14 days can drive for 13 of a 14hr duty day, no need for an employer to supply a hotel.........which one of those is more restrictive?