Shitdisturber
The papers are now saying that the lawsuit alleges that the intrusion could only have been accomplished through automated technology. It seems highly likely to me that AC network security (IBM) began running a sting operation when they realized how many hits a day was taking place. It just didn't happen..
For your information all AC employees and former employees are restricted by a confidential information clause. You break the clause at your own peril.
Perhaps you are also unaware that one of the defendants Mark Hill is also the co-founder of WJ, so logic would have it that Clive would also have known about the operation.
AC Sueing Westjet
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Just want to clear up something here without taking a side.
Many of you seem to think that using the access granted to the database to get route information is sneaky and unexpected. In fact it is very simple and expected. This is something that any third year computer science student would be aware of. This is something that is taught in any database design course. Usually it is taught in the context of protecting the privacy of the people who are in the database, but it applies to protecting any data in the database.
Many of you seem to think that using the access granted to the database to get route information is sneaky and unexpected. In fact it is very simple and expected. This is something that any third year computer science student would be aware of. This is something that is taught in any database design course. Usually it is taught in the context of protecting the privacy of the people who are in the database, but it applies to protecting any data in the database.
This is not the first time in history that one corporation has raided another of its top brass who brings their secrets with them. The one that pops to mind is when Lee (Some weird spelt name) Ioccoca left General Motors I think it was and jumped over to Chysler. He managed to use what he had learned at one to dig the other out of an almost certain demise. I know that's not the case here but it has its similarities.
The important thing to remember is that the people in airline management and government, who make all the relevant decisions, read all these internet websites and make up their minds about what to do, exclusively based on opinions expressed in these anonymous postings.
For the truly dense, it might help to look at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm
For the truly dense, it might help to look at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm
Sarcasm or not, I never knew government ever made up it's mind, and when you thinks it's decided to bend in one direction on a subject a year later they bend the other way..ndb wrote:The important thing to remember is that the people in airline management and government, who make all the relevant decisions, read all these internet websites and make up their minds about what to do, exclusively based on opinions expressed in these anonymous postings.
For the truly dense, it might help to look at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm
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shitdisturber
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- Location: If it's Monday it's got to be somewhere shitty
Rebel, I didn't know about the confidential information clause but I don't know if i'd go along with your "break it at your own peril" remark. As has been pointed out, Lee Iacocca used the information he got from working at Ford all those years to save Chrysler's bacon so I don't know how well or even if the clause would stand up in court. It's not like my days in the military where they had us under the "Official Secrets Act". With that baby they had you dead to rights if you spilled the beans and off to jail you went. As I'm sure you realize, naming Hill in the suit isn't going to get Clive unless somebody rats him out to save their own neck. It isn't about logic, it's about what they can prove; since he's apparently not named it seems reasonable to me that AC knows they can't get him so they're not even going to try.Rebel wrote:Shitdisturber
The papers are now saying that the lawsuit alleges that the intrusion could only have been accomplished through automated technology. It seems highly likely to me that AC network security (IBM) began running a sting operation when they realized how many hits a day was taking place. It just didn't happen..
For your information all AC employees and former employees are restricted by a confidential information clause. You break the clause at your own peril.
Perhaps you are also unaware that one of the defendants Mark Hill is also the co-founder of WJ, so logic would have it that Clive would also have known about the operation.
It's unfortunate that AC and now West Jet have to resort to the "bully on the block" tactics rather than just trying to grow your business with integrity but that I fear is the way of the world. Both of them are equally quilty in my view, AC with their predatory pricing policies to eliminate the competition etc etc; and West Jet complaining so bitterly about the mean little charter operators that were cutting into their bottom line so viciously. I wonder if Clive was including Morgan Air in that?
Rebel quote "The morality and ethics of the modern business world are all geared to the bottom line.
What a great role model for the youth of today and we wonder why they are so sceptical of the future."
Rebel, it's a JT world (Justin Timberlake), Kutcher made him cry,
all image, no substance. What else do the youth of today got going for them?
ps anyone notice how conspicuously absent from this thread I have been?
That's because I'm not the type to say I told ya so......really I'm not.
What a great role model for the youth of today and we wonder why they are so sceptical of the future."
Rebel, it's a JT world (Justin Timberlake), Kutcher made him cry,
all image, no substance. What else do the youth of today got going for them?
ps anyone notice how conspicuously absent from this thread I have been?
That's because I'm not the type to say I told ya so......really I'm not.
This is not analogous to corporate head hunting, as in the case of Lee Iococca. It's one thing to take knowledge you have regarding a former employer's operations to a new employer. It is all together another thing to sneak back after you have left and steal documents. That is essentially what WJ and their former AC employee are accused of doing.
Where's there's smoke there's fire..This one is going to cost WJ big bucks..
Air Canada links WestJet success to 'tap'
Lawsuit documents filed: Accusation that Web site data gave carrier unfair edge
Paul Vieira
Financial Post
Thursday, April 08, 2004
Senior Air Canada executives claim the remarkable success of WestJet Airlines Ltd., compared with the struggles and failures of other domestic low-cost carriers like CanJet and Roots Air, and its recent shift in corporate strategy are tied to its ability to tap unlawfully into the insolvent company's secrets.
The allegation comes in a series of affidavits filed by airline executives, technology staff and security managers in a support of an Air Canada lawsuit against its rival and two of its employees. The documents, which contain allegations yet to be proven in court, spin a tale that suggest many of the recent moves by the Calgary discounter -- from shifting its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto, to changing flight times on certain routes -- were done based on illegal access to Air Canada data.
The Montreal airline alleges WestJet was able, between May of last year and last March 19, to gain access to an Air Canada Web site on at least 240,000 occasions to acquire secret data -- namely passenger traffic and load factors on flights -- by using the personal I.D. of Jeffrey Laffond, a WestJet financial analyst, a former Canadian Airlines employee who was given a log-in password in order to book two free Air Canada flights a year until 2005 as part of his severance package.
Air Canada hinted WestJet may have tapped into the computer before May, 2003, but a change in software prevents Air Canada from tracking back that far.
Air Canada was first tipped off last December by a WestJet employee that the low-cost carrier's executives had access to its rival's secrets.
The whistle-blower decided to spill the beans to Stephen Smith, head of Air Canada's Zip discount subsidiary, because he "was upset, disgusted and concerned about unfair business practices ... in a vicious business."
Air Canada executives argued in the affidavits that WestJet's having access to this confidential information helps explain many of the company's recent moves and a change in corporate direction.
Montie Brewer, Air Canada's vice-president of commercial operations, cited as an example a change in scheduling on WestJet's Vancouver-Montreal route.
Six months after it started, WestJet "made a dramatic scheduling change, moving its only flight on that route from the evening to the early morning -- which coincides with Air Canada's most profitable time for this route," Mr. Brewer said in his affidavit, adding that was likely done with secret data in hand.
He also cites the recent announcement that WestJet is abandoning Hamilton as its eastern Canadian hub in favour of Toronto.
"By observing that Air Canada's loads out of Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa remained steady despite WestJet's presence in Hamilton, WestJet was able to determine that its Hamilton-based flights were not attracting Air Canada's Toronto customers," Mr. Brewer said, "and therefore, moved to Toronto."
The filings also note that as of January 2000, WestJet has skyrocketed from a 10% market share to 30%.
"It has done this at a time when other low-fare airlines who do not have access to Air Canada's confidential information have tried through trial and error to establish viable combinations of routes and fares," Mr. Brewer said, noting Canada 3000 and Roots Air collapsed, while CanJet and Jetsgo struggle.
Ben Smith, Air Canada's senior director of planning, said part of his job is to monitor WestJet's routes. "It has become apparent to me that there has been a marked change in WestJet's recent strategy," he said. "Formerly, it was very conservative about adding new routes -- generally one at a time, and staying within Canada.
"By contrast," Mr. Smith said, "its record on new routes over the past 18 months has been very good. It has added routes for which there is strong demand, and it has become apparently risk aggressive in its expansion."
WestJet has said it will respond to the allegations once it has reviewed all the court materials filed by Air Canada.
© National Post 2004
Air Canada links WestJet success to 'tap'
Lawsuit documents filed: Accusation that Web site data gave carrier unfair edge
Paul Vieira
Financial Post
Thursday, April 08, 2004
Senior Air Canada executives claim the remarkable success of WestJet Airlines Ltd., compared with the struggles and failures of other domestic low-cost carriers like CanJet and Roots Air, and its recent shift in corporate strategy are tied to its ability to tap unlawfully into the insolvent company's secrets.
The allegation comes in a series of affidavits filed by airline executives, technology staff and security managers in a support of an Air Canada lawsuit against its rival and two of its employees. The documents, which contain allegations yet to be proven in court, spin a tale that suggest many of the recent moves by the Calgary discounter -- from shifting its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto, to changing flight times on certain routes -- were done based on illegal access to Air Canada data.
The Montreal airline alleges WestJet was able, between May of last year and last March 19, to gain access to an Air Canada Web site on at least 240,000 occasions to acquire secret data -- namely passenger traffic and load factors on flights -- by using the personal I.D. of Jeffrey Laffond, a WestJet financial analyst, a former Canadian Airlines employee who was given a log-in password in order to book two free Air Canada flights a year until 2005 as part of his severance package.
Air Canada hinted WestJet may have tapped into the computer before May, 2003, but a change in software prevents Air Canada from tracking back that far.
Air Canada was first tipped off last December by a WestJet employee that the low-cost carrier's executives had access to its rival's secrets.
The whistle-blower decided to spill the beans to Stephen Smith, head of Air Canada's Zip discount subsidiary, because he "was upset, disgusted and concerned about unfair business practices ... in a vicious business."
Air Canada executives argued in the affidavits that WestJet's having access to this confidential information helps explain many of the company's recent moves and a change in corporate direction.
Montie Brewer, Air Canada's vice-president of commercial operations, cited as an example a change in scheduling on WestJet's Vancouver-Montreal route.
Six months after it started, WestJet "made a dramatic scheduling change, moving its only flight on that route from the evening to the early morning -- which coincides with Air Canada's most profitable time for this route," Mr. Brewer said in his affidavit, adding that was likely done with secret data in hand.
He also cites the recent announcement that WestJet is abandoning Hamilton as its eastern Canadian hub in favour of Toronto.
"By observing that Air Canada's loads out of Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa remained steady despite WestJet's presence in Hamilton, WestJet was able to determine that its Hamilton-based flights were not attracting Air Canada's Toronto customers," Mr. Brewer said, "and therefore, moved to Toronto."
The filings also note that as of January 2000, WestJet has skyrocketed from a 10% market share to 30%.
"It has done this at a time when other low-fare airlines who do not have access to Air Canada's confidential information have tried through trial and error to establish viable combinations of routes and fares," Mr. Brewer said, noting Canada 3000 and Roots Air collapsed, while CanJet and Jetsgo struggle.
Ben Smith, Air Canada's senior director of planning, said part of his job is to monitor WestJet's routes. "It has become apparent to me that there has been a marked change in WestJet's recent strategy," he said. "Formerly, it was very conservative about adding new routes -- generally one at a time, and staying within Canada.
"By contrast," Mr. Smith said, "its record on new routes over the past 18 months has been very good. It has added routes for which there is strong demand, and it has become apparently risk aggressive in its expansion."
WestJet has said it will respond to the allegations once it has reviewed all the court materials filed by Air Canada.
© National Post 2004
LoL.. Jetsgo stock $20 a pop and AC stock $1.. <hrmm> I don't want to know what shape AC is in if Jetsgo is "struggling"Rebel wrote: . Roots Air collapsed, while CanJet and Jetsgo struggle.
****
Oh, yeah, and they needed to steal the magic info to find out people aren't dumb enough to drive to hamilton for 2 hours to get a flight to ottawa, when they can go to a crappy pearson.
Yeah, that's it..
The employee website only started in late 2002. Prior to that, all standby bookings were done through their reservations line. I find it funny that AC is trying to say that all WJ success from 2000 is due to this access to the employee travel site.
Can't blame them for trying as nothing else seems to be working!
Can't blame them for trying as nothing else seems to be working!
Rebel
I have my introductory user guide for the Employee travel site right infront of me, and it's dated November 29, 2002. I was part of a team that helped roll out the training to the front line employees, and my documentation shows that training was held in December of 2002.
Is it possible you are thinking of voice recognition, which was in use prior to the ETS?
As for the media treating WJ as if they could do no wrong, that is true, but ask yourself why? Because they compete with AC, which always goes out of it's way to make itself look bad.
I have my introductory user guide for the Employee travel site right infront of me, and it's dated November 29, 2002. I was part of a team that helped roll out the training to the front line employees, and my documentation shows that training was held in December of 2002.
Is it possible you are thinking of voice recognition, which was in use prior to the ETS?
As for the media treating WJ as if they could do no wrong, that is true, but ask yourself why? Because they compete with AC, which always goes out of it's way to make itself look bad.
Rampoe
My apologies you are correct it was voice recognition.
I found this post on another aviation forum by YYCF/A whom I failed to ask permission for its reproduction on this forum.
YYC F/A
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 9th April 2004 11:41
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I don't think anyone is saying that the information could 'bankrupt' an airline per se. However, as with all companies, as an employee you often have access to a lot of privileged or commercially sensitive information.
The system used at many airlines internally that allows employees to list for space available leisure travel shows a lot of company confidential information, and it is bound by strict rules of conduct and confidentiality which it would appear have been breached in this instance.
At United, employees have the opportunity to check loads for any flight systemwide on any given date. The system will show aircraft type, aircraft configuration by cabin, number of revenue passengers in each cabin, and number of 'non-revs' listed in each class of service. Therefore, one can find out extremely accurately how many pax UA is booking in each class on each route on each day, and pick out trends etc. A similar system at AC would offer the same information, all of which is commercially sensitive.
It remains to be seen what the 'real' facts actually are, but if AC's claims are correct then this should be seen as a seriously bad managment decision by some of WestJets top personnel, and unethical and bad corporate practice by WestJet.
And yes, I would agree with some of the views already expressed here. If it would have been WJ making the complaint against AC doing that to them, there would have been an outpouring of sympathy to WestJet, 'the underdog' smiley touchy feely airline. But the fact that WestJet is the alleged villain here does nothing more than to make most people smile and say "WestJet - those cheeky guys, what will they think of next!" and chuckle away.
My apologies you are correct it was voice recognition.
I found this post on another aviation forum by YYCF/A whom I failed to ask permission for its reproduction on this forum.
YYC F/A
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 9th April 2004 11:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think anyone is saying that the information could 'bankrupt' an airline per se. However, as with all companies, as an employee you often have access to a lot of privileged or commercially sensitive information.
The system used at many airlines internally that allows employees to list for space available leisure travel shows a lot of company confidential information, and it is bound by strict rules of conduct and confidentiality which it would appear have been breached in this instance.
At United, employees have the opportunity to check loads for any flight systemwide on any given date. The system will show aircraft type, aircraft configuration by cabin, number of revenue passengers in each cabin, and number of 'non-revs' listed in each class of service. Therefore, one can find out extremely accurately how many pax UA is booking in each class on each route on each day, and pick out trends etc. A similar system at AC would offer the same information, all of which is commercially sensitive.
It remains to be seen what the 'real' facts actually are, but if AC's claims are correct then this should be seen as a seriously bad managment decision by some of WestJets top personnel, and unethical and bad corporate practice by WestJet.
And yes, I would agree with some of the views already expressed here. If it would have been WJ making the complaint against AC doing that to them, there would have been an outpouring of sympathy to WestJet, 'the underdog' smiley touchy feely airline. But the fact that WestJet is the alleged villain here does nothing more than to make most people smile and say "WestJet - those cheeky guys, what will they think of next!" and chuckle away.
And the past 18 months AC has been going in the toliet with a very shakey future.Rebel wrote:
"By contrast," Mr. Smith said, "its record on new routes over the past 18 months has been very good. It has added routes for which there is strong demand, and it has become apparently risk aggressive in its expansion."
Does it not makes sense that WJ exands more aggressively at a time when AC is in this miserable mess? It does to me.
Did Jetsgo not come out of the woodwork during this same time frame with a VERY aggressive business plan? Does this also mean that Jetsgo was involved with corporate espionage?
AC is only looking to divert attention away from Li's pullout... nothing more.
I haven't posted in a long time but this one needs a response.... Airlines are very competitive, of you had a chance to see what the competition was up to wouldn't you.
Heck, you can pretty much tell what their load factors are like from the ticket counter..but you could also ask, maybe it's just me but lots of times I've wandered over to the competions ticket girls and asked how full a flight was and they told me...granted not 2400000 whatever times..but it's really not hard to find out.
As I recall Westjet was doing rather well prior to the alleged stealing of valued information. I don't know but it sounds to me like AC is just trying to get somone else some negative press, that said I'm very pro Westjet. Dealing with both as a customer and a supplier I always found Westjetters happy and helpful, virtually without exception and AC folks tend overwhelmingly to be grumpy, dissatisfied and downright rude so basically let em rot..they did it to themselves..Way to go Westjet
Heck, you can pretty much tell what their load factors are like from the ticket counter..but you could also ask, maybe it's just me but lots of times I've wandered over to the competions ticket girls and asked how full a flight was and they told me...granted not 2400000 whatever times..but it's really not hard to find out.
As I recall Westjet was doing rather well prior to the alleged stealing of valued information. I don't know but it sounds to me like AC is just trying to get somone else some negative press, that said I'm very pro Westjet. Dealing with both as a customer and a supplier I always found Westjetters happy and helpful, virtually without exception and AC folks tend overwhelmingly to be grumpy, dissatisfied and downright rude so basically let em rot..they did it to themselves..Way to go Westjet
R1830
So much for your corporate ethics...Please tell us who you are so that we don't use you as a supplier anymore. When folks with your morals come out of the woodwork we need not guess why society is in so much trouble.
I suspect in your world its okay to sell drugs to kids, as long as its not your kids. Anything for a buck, hey...
So much for your corporate ethics...Please tell us who you are so that we don't use you as a supplier anymore. When folks with your morals come out of the woodwork we need not guess why society is in so much trouble.
I suspect in your world its okay to sell drugs to kids, as long as its not your kids. Anything for a buck, hey...
