~ Is Foreflite worth it ? Navigation Questions

[NeckStrain]

Good Evening,

I was wondering if anyone here used ForeFlight mobile application for Flight Navigation - is it worth it if you're flying in Canadian aerospace ?

I am currently starting my X-Country phase of my PPL training, and I have to say, paper charts are small and packed with info. challenging to use IN FLIGHT **

Alternatively, if you use different methods to navigate, or have some tips for paper chart use, feel free to provide them.

I am aware of radio navigational aids, but I am asking for assistance without their use.

Thank you.

[photofly]

Foreflight is great, but it's important to learn to use a paper chart too. You can't use foreflight for the diversion exercise, so you had better have the paper chart anyway, and learn to use it. Get Foreflight *after* you pass your flight test.

[CpnCrunch]

I'm pretty sure you can't use Foreflight or similar during any of your flight test.

Apart from that, if you just want moving-map charts, use FltPlan Go instead. It's free, and still has the actual VNC and VTA georeferenced, along with all the IFR charts. (You can use ForeFlight or FltPlan Go for your IFR flight test, but make sure you have some kind of backup).

[cgzro]

And batteries die and sun / glare / sunglasses makes it hard to read .. and good luck using a touch sensitive screen in severe turbulence!

Extremely useful for planning though and well worth it just to avoid buying the CFS and killing all those trees.

With maps the trick is in how you fold them and how you prepare them. I often will spend quite a bit of time arranging the folds in the maps so that they neatly fan out along my route and I still like to highlight the route with yellow highlighter. Circle the alternates, highlight their frequencies and important info so you can find it fast.

Also a few years ago I found an old map in ForeFlight, it was showing the wrong TCA rings for Ottawa which had changed over 6 months earlier and for some reason the new VTA was not showing when you zoomed and panned around but was when it first loaded, very bizarre and could have caused me grief.

[Cat Driver]

With maps the trick is in how you fold them and how you prepare them. I often will spend quite a bit of time arranging the folds in the maps so that they neatly fan out along my route and I still like to highlight the route with yellow highlighter. Circle the alternates, highlight their frequencies and important info so you can find it fast.

That method has been the best for ever.

[NeckStrain]

Yes, I'm aware of the Flight Test requirements which is exactly why I'm reluctant to go to ForeFlight, because i want to struggle through the learning process of using actual charts that don't break, turn off, or die when they get a little wet.

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm just about to start the Navigation Portion of Ground School (pilot training.ca - Harv's air) - so hopefully that will have some useful tips and tricks.

The folding portion is ruining some areas at the creases on my map which sucks because it's brand-new.

I'm pretty sure you can't use Foreflight or similar during any of your flight test.

Apart from that, if you just want moving-map charts, use FltPlan Go instead. It's free, and still has the actual VNC and VTA georeferenced, along with all the IFR charts. (You can use ForeFlight or FltPlan Go for your IFR flight test, but make sure you have some kind of backup).

[photofly]

Yes, I'm aware of the Flight Test requirements which is exactly why I'm reluctant to go to ForeFlight, because i want to struggle through the learning process of using actual charts that don't break, turn off, or die when they get a little wet.

Are you under some kind of pressure, then? Is someone forcing you to use an ipad? If you're reluctant to use an electronic device then what is the problem with you using a paper chart? Why are you asking?

[lownslow]

The folding portion is ruining some areas at the creases on my map which sucks because it's brand-new.

Yeah, the first time you make your own fold lines is a heartbreaker but you get used to it. The maps have to be replaced periodically as they're updated anyways and if you fold it loosely it will survive until the next one comes out.

[lhalliday]

Since you have to do your flight test with paper charts, there is little point in worrying about ForeFlight. I use it (iPad mini, with a Ram yoke mount and Bad Elf GPS). It's slick. I also have a GPS in my plane (Aera 796), and paper charts. I have no excuse if I get lost.

When you actually use your charts you will fold them and draw on them. This is what they're for. If they last more than six months you're not flying enough.

...laura

[NeckStrain]

Not at all, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on navigation because I noticed that in Flight, paper charts tend to be tedious to use, to determine distance, accurate headings, or even read since they are so tiny.

Yes, I'm aware of the Flight Test requirements which is exactly why I'm reluctant to go to ForeFlight, because i want to struggle through the learning process of using actual charts that don't break, turn off, or die when they get a little wet.

Are you under some kind of pressure, then? Is someone forcing you to use an ipad? If you're reluctant to use an electronic device then what is the problem with you using a paper chart? Why are you asking?

[NeckStrain]

I don't know if I'm QUITE ready to mark on them...just joking! This is why I asked the question, so folding and creasing and marking is the norm. That's good to know! So I won't feel bad about ruining my chart. Thank you for the advice.

Since you have to do your flight test with paper charts, there is little point in worrying about ForeFlight. I use it (iPad mini, with a Ram yoke mount and Bad Elf GPS). It's slick. I also have a GPS in my plane (Aera 796), and paper charts. I have no excuse if I get lost.

When you actually use your charts you will fold them and draw on them. This is what they're for. If they last more than six months you're not flying enough.

...laura

[fixedpitch]

Since you have to do your flight test with paper charts, there is little point in worrying about ForeFlight. I use it (iPad mini, with a Ram yoke mount and Bad Elf GPS). It's slick. I also have a GPS in my plane (Aera 796), and paper charts. I have no excuse if I get lost

Laura does the bad elf make a big difference? I was thinking of adding one to my iPad mini.....

[jg24]

It is very common now to see students using ForeFlight nowadays, more like become dependent on it. Master the paper first. Use the ipad later in the CPL time building phase, and even then, stay proficient because you will go back to paper for the flight test.

Since you’re in your cross country phase, do as you’re taught during PPL ground school and your PGIs with your instructor. All your issues are solved with proper flight planning the night before and day of. Have a nice clean line depicting your planned route, your drift lines, 10NM spacing markers/half way markers or whatever you’re using… I used to highlight appropriate small airports en route to easy catch at a glance. If you have everything properly planned, along with that nav log, you should become very familiar with your route so that nothing should surprise you. You shouldn’t have to be digging through your map for information too much, mainly because important things should be noted properly, example:

A) frequencies, you can find and list all of them in order of use in the notes section of your nav log, or in your kneeboard paper

B) if you’re looking for something, you should have a basic idea of where to look for it, yes some maps are crammed, but generally speaking that’s been covered with the implementation of VTAs for busy terminal areas, so if you’ve got the right map open for your phase of flight, finding what you need should be simple, as you should know where to look for it (goes back to proper flight planning and familiarization with the flight…. restricted airspaces, location of other airports, VORs, RCOs etc….)

Yes the map will rip near the creases when used regularly, it happens, you’ll get over it when you realize how many maps you go through during your PPL and CPL. Your flight test will likely happen at a time frame outside of the validity of your current map, so don’t sweat it, buy the new map when approaching your flight test and save it for your pre flight test and flight test, so you have a fresh clean one for the test.

Not at all, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on navigation because I noticed that in Flight, paper charts tend to be tedious to use, to determine distance, accurate headings, or even read since they are so tiny.

Distances, headings etc should be all done in the flight planning portion, at the comfort of your own home wearing PJs and sipping on a good…. hot chocolate…. Use your plotting tools as taught during ground school/PGI and you’ll realize, with a little attention, how accurate it is. Yes you may have to make some measurements in flight, but you should learn how to do that during your diversion training, during which calculated estimates are accepted, no need for precision to the 1 degree/ 1 NM.

Tip regarding folding, once you have your lines drawn out and everything marked, fold the top and bottom (or left and right) part back to leave the route exposed in the middle with a decent amount of space on either side of the main planned route exposed to provide useful info. Then fold like a booklet so that you can just flip it from one section to another as you cross the map….(that may have been confusing). It’ll fit nicely on your kneeboard, and then you can unwrap it like a pamphlet, and keep the top/bottom(left/right) parts not used clipped back with paper clips or those black metal clips. Ask your instructor, they'll show you.

Good luck

[jg24]

And batteries die and sun / glare / sunglasses makes it hard to read .. and good luck using a touch sensitive screen in severe turbulence!

Extremely useful for planning though and well worth it just to avoid buying the CFS and killing all those trees.

With maps the trick is in how you fold them and how you prepare them. I often will spend quite a bit of time arranging the folds in the maps so that they neatly fan out along my route and I still like to highlight the route with yellow highlighter. Circle the alternates, highlight their frequencies and important info so you can find it fast.

Also a few years ago I found an old map in ForeFlight, it was showing the wrong TCA rings for Ottawa which had changed over 6 months earlier and for some reason the new VTA was not showing when you zoomed and panned around but was when it first loaded, very bizarre and could have caused me grief.

What he said, thumbs up. Also, better description of the map folding technique than the garbage i said... sorry i'm tired

[NeckStrain]

Thank you so much for such a detailed and helpful answer. I'm sure I'm just overly concerned and it will all work out with a bit more practice just like my landings did.

It is very common now to see students using ForeFlight nowadays, more like become dependent on it. Master the paper first. Use the ipad later in the CPL time building phase, and even then, stay proficient because you will go back to paper for the flight test.

Since you’re in your cross country phase, do as you’re taught during PPL ground school and your PGIs with your instructor. All your issues are solved with proper flight planning the night before and day of. Have a nice clean line depicting your planned route, your drift lines, 10NM spacing markers/half way markers or whatever you’re using… I used to highlight appropriate small airports en route to easy catch at a glance. If you have everything properly planned, along with that nav log, you should become very familiar with your route so that nothing should surprise you. You shouldn’t have to be digging through your map for information too much, mainly because important things should be noted properly, example:

A) frequencies, you can find and list all of them in order of use in the notes section of your nav log, or in your kneeboard paper

B) if you’re looking for something, you should have a basic idea of where to look for it, yes some maps are crammed, but generally speaking that’s been covered with the implementation of VTAs for busy terminal areas, so if you’ve got the right map open for your phase of flight, finding what you need should be simple, as you should know where to look for it (goes back to proper flight planning and familiarization with the flight…. restricted airspaces, location of other airports, VORs, RCOs etc….)

Yes the map will rip near the creases when used regularly, it happens, you’ll get over it when you realize how many maps you go through during your PPL and CPL. Your flight test will likely happen at a time frame outside of the validity of your current map, so don’t sweat it, buy the new map when approaching your flight test and save it for your pre flight test and flight test, so you have a fresh clean one for the test.

Not at all, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on navigation because I noticed that in Flight, paper charts tend to be tedious to use, to determine distance, accurate headings, or even read since they are so tiny.

Distances, headings etc should be all done in the flight planning portion, at the comfort of your own home wearing PJs and sipping on a good…. hot chocolate…. Use your plotting tools as taught during ground school/PGI and you’ll realize, with a little attention, how accurate it is. Yes you may have to make some measurements in flight, but you should learn how to do that during your diversion training, during which calculated estimates are accepted, no need for precision to the 1 degree/ 1 NM.

Tip regarding folding, once you have your lines drawn out and everything marked, fold the top and bottom (or left and right) part back to leave the route exposed in the middle with a decent amount of space on either side of the main planned route exposed to provide useful info. Then fold like a booklet so that you can just flip it from one section to another as you cross the map….(that may have been confusing). It’ll fit nicely on your kneeboard, and then you can unwrap it like a pamphlet, and keep the top/bottom(left/right) parts not used clipped back with paper clips or those black metal clips. Ask your instructor, they'll show you.

Good luck

[lhalliday]

Laura does the bad elf make a big difference? I was thinking of adding one to my iPad mini.....

The iPad GPS is more than up to the task. The main technical/aeronautical advantage of using an external GPS is I can put it in a more favourable location in the cockpit and get (on paper, at least) better GPS reception.

Philosophically, the Bad Elf was designed from the ground up as a GPS, to be the best GPS it can be. It was not designed as part of a larger product so that 911 dispatchers can figure out where I am, or so that Google can better target ads.

I like the ground track maps I can do with the Bad Elf application.

CYCW 28 January.png (314.94 KiB) Viewed 3554 times

It amuses me. This is not something to underestimate.

...laura

[jg24]

Thank you so much for such a detailed and helpful answer. I'm sure I'm just overly concerned and it will all work out with a bit more practice just like my landings did.

Most welcome. It feels a little daunting at first, but once you're done your first dual cross country, you'll see how it all goes and you'll be more prepped for your solo ones. Another tip is to orient your map 'track up' when you're navigating in flight. So if you look left out the window, you see what's left of your track line on your map, basically the top of your map should depict what's off the front of your airplane's nose. Easier to see whether you're on track as the lakes and such look (or should) like they do on your map being oriented the same way.


happy flying

[CpnCrunch]

Another tip is to orient your map 'track up' when you're navigating in flight.

I'm not sure that is generally applicable. I myself prefer to have my map North up. I find it easier to see exactly where I am and what way I'm going, and it's much easier to figure out what direction to fly on your diversion if the map is oriented North up.

[Cat Driver]

North up or track up is a personal choice.

Use which ever works for you.

I use track up.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As a general comment you should use the best tool available. Foreflight used properly is a far better navigation tool than a map and a pencil as it gives you continuous own ship position relative to terrain and airspace. You will always have better situational awareness with Foreflight than with a map.

However that beeing said when initially learning to fly it is important to learn the foundation principals of navigation and this can really only be done by practicing traditional navigation.

The reason you need that is so that you can evaluate what the magic screen is saying using the TLAR (that looks about right) test. A perfect example of not having TLAR skills happened to me with a ride along with a low pilot not that long ago. It was an out and back trip. The track out was 321 M, so we flash up to go back home and the pilot enters the destination airport, hits direct to and then bugs the heading the box gives... 060 .. So I said " Are we good to go ? " Oh Yah is the reply. " You sure ? " ...and then sensing I was not impressed asked " what's the problem ?"

So I pointed out that this is a out and return trip so the return heading should be the reciprocal of 321, and 060 wasn't even close. and by the way if the trip distance on the outbound leg was 76 miles why is the magic box telling us our destination is 121 miles away ?

Of course he had entered the wrong airport identifier, but it resulted in a positive discussion of looking at everything that technology tells us through the TLAR lens........

As for the North up vs Track Up. Call me old school, but it is always North Up in my airplane.

[photofly]

I was doing some navigation with someone once. We were flying south, and he was having difficulty identifying a landmark in plain sight off the left wing, on the chart. So I turned the chart in his hands from north up to track (south) up, hoping that would help. He looked at me in horror: "that's how girls read maps!" he said.

After that I figured I would just him work it out in his own way.

[Black_Tusk]

I didn't read any of the other posts in here.. just want to say yes it is very worth it. I used it for years until I eventually flew a plane with an FMS... The fact you can have all your charts on there, the maps, routing etc... it's worth the money.

[CpnCrunch]

The fact you can have all your charts on there, the maps, routing etc... it's worth the money.

But you can get all that for free in FltPlan Go. I haven't used ForeFlight, but I gather it just has a better user interface and some more features.

[fixedpitch]

But you can get all that for free in FltPlan Go. I haven't used ForeFlight, but I gather it just has a better user interface and some more features.

My experience with FltPlan Go was pretty negative. It failed constantly and was generally unreliable. Now that could be because I using a Samsung Tablet not the Ipad mini but if you're using the android version have a back up.

[AirFrame]

Another tip is to orient your map 'track up' when you're navigating in flight. So if you look left out the window, you see what's left of your track line on your map, basically the top of your map should depict what's off the front of your airplane's nose. Easier to see whether you're on track as the lakes and such look (or should) like they do on your map being oriented the same way.

I tried Track Up for a while, but occasionally I would bump (and rotate) the map on my lap, or move it onto the passenger seat and then bring it back to look at, and would have to figure out which way was "up". I switched to flying with North up, and now any time grab the map I know how to orient it, and from there my heading always gives me my direction of flight. I don't have any trouble reconciling the fact that the plane is moving left-to-right on the map rather than bottom-to-top.