Air Transat YOW

[Jimmy2]

16 hour duty day?...when in the 6 hours did it become unforeseen? Interesting interpretation of that rule...

They didn't foresee breaking their 14 hour duty day when they took off 15.5 hours into their duty day.

[Old fella]

How would pulling a slide improve the situation ?
I'm not certain anyone would have applauded the person causing all 350 to sleep over in yow

That is one sick mind you have there

I'd rather be in a hotel than in a hot box for 6 hours.
I would have applauded as well.

Probably wouldn't have pulled it myself, but would definitely support whoever would do it. You can't keep people locked up for 6 hours without an explanation and enough food/drink or a tolerable temperature.

Agreed. This is dangerous confinement of people which could result in dire consequences for anybody let alone somebody who may have a slight medical condition and as well elderly, toddlers and so on.

Airlines/Regulator/Border Services/Airport Authorities have to coordinate efforts before some unfortunate vacationers loose their lives. I am surprised this hasn't happened.

[Captain S itmagnet]

A couple of hours of drywall mudding in the rec room has gone by...
So, how hard did the crew advocate for having the passengers put in a more comfortable setting?
"You're next for fuelling, really, we promise" rings pretty thin after a certain number of minutes, not hours, under these conditions.
It keeps coming back to me, was this crew adequately hydrated, fed, unstressed, and fit to continue their duty into potentially greater than 16 hours and in the middle of the night body clock time after an Atlantic crossing and diversion ? No amount of swagger or bravado can convince me the the answer was yes, whether I was there or not. And it bears repeating, was this crew coerced into this situation by those more concerned with the bottom line?

Flame away folks.

[confusedalot]

Someone in the food chain wanted that plane full of passengers to get back to YUL at minimum cost, before the crew timed out on the unforeseen 17 hour thing.

Why they could not get their fuel, very bizarre. Suspect other players who are not mentioned in the media to be accessories to this major screw up.

[CCnCoke]

How would pulling a slide improve the situation ?
I'm not certain anyone would have applauded the person causing all 350 to sleep over in yow

That is one sick mind you have there

If I'm on board with my kid, no food, no air, some other kid is getting sick, lavs are probably running over, body odors taking over the cabin, etc, etc, for 6 hours, I know my nerves would be fried. I was asking about the legal ramifications of someone taking some action.

I think the real 'sick mind' here is whoever decided these people weren't getting off that aircraft.

[atphat]

16 hour duty day?...when in the 6 hours did it become unforeseen? Interesting interpretation of that rule...

They didn't foresee breaking their 14 hour duty day when they took off 15.5 hours into their duty day.

Exactly. But it's all good and safe because it was irops though.

[goingnowherefast]

I think we need new flight and duty time rules ASAP!

If the crew had run out of duty time, I bet they would have de-planned all the passengers. That said, the flight crew can also refuse the duty time extension

[Jean-Pierre]

We have duty regulation already. If they didn't change crew they most likely broke them.

[complexintentions]

https://www.google.be/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4230048

Let's try this again. Ottawa airport disputes Air Transats account. Interesting as every other diverted plane quickly serviced and departed. No AC either sounds pleasant.

Yes, it definitely merits calling 911 and having paramedics attend. Please refer to my avatar. Perhaps they should ask Air Transat to provide grief counsellors and post-traumatic treatment?

I hate being delayed as much as the next person and I've had some absolutely crazy ones, both as pax and PIC. But quotes like this:

"I'm super pissed," Mah said. "I'm just really hot, I'm sweating, and I haven't eaten. … I'm hungry and they only rationed the food to give little snacks to kids, which is good. Luckily, they started bringing in bottles of water from the outside, like 45 minutes ago, but no food. I'm starving."

make me think some people need to spend a little more time outside their First World comfort zone to appreciate what true suffering is. I don't deny this was an unpleasant situation. I am highly confident the most vulnerable (elderly, children) were prioritized. But It was certainly not a crisis. Except, of course, everything is a crisis now to the person anything remotely unpleasant is happening to. Funny though, in spite of their "starvation" they always seem to dig deep and find the energy to video and live-tweet and bitch like hell. Ah, such courage.

Flame to your little fingertips content, I don't care. If being able to survive for six hours without water and a/c is the current threshold for the species to continue, I am praying fervently it goes extinct.

Incidentally, the duty rules for "unforeseen" are based on the original departure. The comments about it being an "interesting interpretation" of the rule have an obvious lack of understanding. The diversion WAS the "unforeseen operational circumstance". Duh.

Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.

[Spaceshuttle]

You back up my statement with your own interpretation, classic... and thanks!

[complexintentions]

At the time they departed Brussels, they did not foresee having to divert. (That's what the "un" in front of "foreseeable" means). The diversion necessitated extending their duty day to complete the flight to destination. Which they did. Which was legal. No interpretation required, just a boringly normal use of the reg.

Hope that's simple enough for you. I tried to keep it concise.

[justwork]

16 hour duty day?...when in the 6 hours did it become unforeseen? Interesting interpretation of that rule...

They didn't foresee breaking their 14 hour duty day when they took off 15.5 hours into their duty day.

That's not how it works.

[digits_]

Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.

How about you don't keep your passengers on board for 6 hours for no reason in an airplane that you ran out of fuel. What's next, wait untill everybody is sitting in the dark at night? How long should they wait before revolting? 6 hours? 12 ? 24? You'll get the respect from your passengers that you deserve.

By the time someone pulls the slide in such a case, there is absolutely nothing you can do anymore. You've lost all authority, and frankly, rightfully so. The company can try to recover the costs and sue the passenger, and by that time I hope all the other passengers chip in and get a great lawyer for the chute pulling guy/gal.

There is no reason to justify holding people against their will on a non-functioning airplane for 6 hours. None. Their are always alternatives.

[MyWave]

It's how Transat rolls...
First, it was "The Mexican Game", now "The Ottawa Game".

They are 0 for 2 at this point, and winter is coming...

[Jean-Pierre]

16 hour duty day?...when in the 6 hours did it become unforeseen? Interesting interpretation of that rule...

They didn't foresee breaking their 14 hour duty day when they took off 15.5 hours into their duty day.

That's not how it works.

How does it work then? I really didn't think you could depart on a new flight if you had already gone over your 14 hour. Maybe you could argue it if you were on glacier in antarctica and if you don't go today you aren't going for 6 month. But they are in Ottawa. Just park it and let them get a new crew while the passenger are in the hotel.

[ant_321]

They didn't foresee breaking their 14 hour duty day when they took off 15.5 hours into their duty day.

That's not how it works.

How does it work then? I really didn't think you could depart on a new flight if you had already gone over your 14 hour. Maybe you could argue it if you were on glacier in antarctica and if you don't go today you aren't going for 6 month. But they are in Ottawa. Just park it and let them get a new crew while the passenger are in the hotel.

The "unforseen" rules are very vague. Airplanes take off everyday after already passing the 14 hour mark and TC doesn't seem too concerned. I worked at a place where it happened a fair bit. Show up in the morning, have a wx delay, leave for the first leg knowing 8 legs later you would blow 14 hrs. Take off on the last leg 14.5 hrs in to your day and land 15 hrs+ into your day. I personally didn't do it. I spent a few nights in a hotel a 20 min flight away from home but many guys would do it routinely.

[goingnowherefast]

Here part of the TC interpretation. Relates to flight time, not duty time, but it's still unforeseen operational circumstances

Unforeseen operational circumstances (UOC) may be used to allow a pilot to complete a “block” or “cycle” with an extension to the flight time limitations for either the seven, 30 or 90 day periods. For example, a pilot on a 7-day block accumulates 3 additional flight hours during the first 6 days due to UOC. The pilot may still fly a trip on day 7 which takes him/her to a maximum of 43 hours in 7 days. In all cases, the maximum extension allowed is three consecutive hours.

Taken from the TC website:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... tm#s740.17

This is a pretty clear definition, taken from the same guidance material:

UOC relates solely to operational circumstances, which result in delays to a planned schedule. In other words, these circumstances must be crew, weather, aircraft mechanical, ATC or emergency related and must directly affect the operation of the aircraft. Delaying the departure of a flight to wait for a delayed passenger may have an operational effect on the schedule, but it is not an UOC.

Just because its legal, doesn't make it smart. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "nope, get me a hotel room". Had I been stuck in a hot, stinky, stressful cockpit for 6 hours while waiting to fly through some crap weather to my intended destination, I'd have likely said no.

[rookiepilot]

https://www.google.be/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4230048

Let's try this again. Ottawa airport disputes Air Transats account. Interesting as every other diverted plane quickly serviced and departed. No AC either sounds pleasant.

Yes, it definitely merits calling 911 and having paramedics attend. Please refer to my avatar. Perhaps they should ask Air Transat to provide grief counsellors and post-traumatic treatment?

make me think some people need to spend a little more time outside their First World comfort zone to appreciate what true suffering is. n't deny this was an unpleasant situation. I am highly confident the most vulnerable (elderly, children) were prioritized.

Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.

Read the news carefully. AT was not providing water, to kids or anyone else. Calling 911 after being on plane with no airflow for hours and no water, and likely no reassurance from the airline, isn't that crazy. Sorry you disagree. Try to see it from a parents view with a puking small child. And personally, as a captain you should never, ever let things go that far. Do your job which includes taking care of pax, or yes people will call 911.

To your last point: I don't agree with ever pulling a slide and causing panic. But to counter your last comment, what if someone died on that plane due to heatstroke or dehydration? Should the captain be charged if he/she stood by for many hours and did nothing to ensure health of the pax?

So there you go.

[Old fella]

https://www.google.be/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4230048

Let's try this again. Ottawa airport disputes Air Transats account. Interesting as every other diverted plane quickly serviced and departed. No AC either sounds pleasant.

Yes, it definitely merits calling 911 and having paramedics attend. Please refer to my avatar. Perhaps they should ask Air Transat to provide grief counsellors and post-traumatic treatment?

make me think some people need to spend a little more time outside their First World comfort zone to appreciate what true suffering is. n't deny this was an unpleasant situation. I am highly confident the most vulnerable (elderly, children) were prioritized.

Oh, and blow a slide without authorization on my plane simply because you're miffed and hangry and I'll do everything in my power to make make sure you not only never fly on the airline, but get charged with criminal misconduct. The potential for injury on any slide evac is high, it's not a freakin' bouncy castle intended for people to get off the plane because they're hot and bored. If someone thinks it's worth breaking some little old lady's ankle because they're frustrated I will make sure they answer for it.

Read the news carefully. AT was not providing water, to kids or anyone else. Calling 911 after being on plane with no airflow for hours and no water, and likely no reassurance from the airline, isn't that crazy. Sorry you disagree. Try to see it from a parents view with a puking small child. And personally, as a captain you should never, ever let things go that far. Do your job which includes taking care of pax, or yes people will call 911.

To your last point: I don't agree with ever pulling a slide and causing panic. But to counter your last comment, what if someone died on that plane due to heatstroke or dehydration? Should the captain be charged if he/she stood by for many hours and did nothing to ensure health of the pax?

So there you go.

Maybe AT's legal department has taken a keen interest in dispensing some good advice to the top MGT as per your last paragraph.

[av8ts]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/otta ... -1.4234647

Canadian Transportation Agency is now investigating. As per their tariff, which I believe applies to all Canadian airlines, Transat passengers must be given the option to get of the aircraft after 90 minutes