Jumping from airline to corporate?

Discussion of topics related to corporate aviation throughout the world.

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Jet Jockey
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by Jet Jockey »

Broker wrote:
Jet Jockey wrote:I go twice a year for training on the Global.
Same program every time or do they split the required training so that it is more positive. Very unimpressed with the last few years at BBD YUL.

I would not put all the blame on BBD.

The new idiots at TC are causing a lot of problems for both the operators and the training centres.

In our case because we have so much material to cover because of the way our training manual was approved by TC that a lot of the sim time is basically just "tick the boxes" which does not promote learning at all!

So we have to cover the required material and then try to do extra stuff. We do follow some of BBD's scenarios/syllabus but we also modify them. This is true for the "annual training and when a PPC/ride" is required.

However at the 6 month training we are not bound by all our/TC training requirements so we the pilots get to say what we would like to see/practice which is a much better learning environment.

All new to us now is the TCO thing for commercial ops in Europe. Because of this now we are required do to an "internal PPC" every 6 months and CATII training every year.
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Broker
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by Broker »

"I would not put all the blame on BBD.

The new idiots at TC are causing a lot of problems for both the operators and the training centres.

In our case because we have so much material to cover because of the way our training manual was approved by TC that a lot of the sim time is basically just "tick the boxes" which does not promote learning at all!"


That is what I was getting at and you are correct, it isn't fair to hold BATC solely to blame. TC shares a big part of it as did the misinterpretation by both operators and training centres.

Right now, it is a bandaid patch as it is almost negative training. It is more like an abbreviated check to see what does need training. Lots of repositioning is not conducive to meaningful training. Throw away the old "Train as you fly, fly as you train addage."
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dude507
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by dude507 »

I agree with Jet Jockey's comments.
As far as just using any sim in the same category just to qualify for night landings is bogus as far as I am concerned. Transport should not allow that. Same category airplanes can have very different landing characteristics which absolutely wouldn't increase currency in ones own type. Besides if you are going to spend money to rent a sim just for that, why not actually get value out of it and do some good training. Oh yeah, cheap owners. There may not be statistics for increased training and yes I agree most operators just follow CARS and that's because that's the minimum they have to. I am sure if they coud get away with less they would. Myself I would rather have a catastrophic failure 5 months after I have trained versus 11 months after may last training. And like Jet Jockey said. Since it is not regulatory mandated, it is the time to do good scenarios you would otherwise not be able to do just filling boxes on an annual training.
Better trained is better trained in any field of work. And that is a fact. Well enough on that topic.
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Broker
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by Broker »

dude507 wrote:I agree with Jet Jockey's comments.
As far as just using any sim in the same category just to qualify for night landings is bogus as far as I am concerned. Transport should not allow that. Same category airplanes can have very different landing characteristics which absolutely wouldn't increase currency in ones own type. Besides if you are going to spend money to rent a sim just for that, why not actually get value out of it and do some good training. Oh yeah, cheap owners. There may not be statistics for increased training and yes I agree most operators just follow CARS and that's because that's the minimum they have to. I am sure if they coud get away with less they would. Myself I would rather have a catastrophic failure 5 months after I have trained versus 11 months after may last training. And like Jet Jockey said. Since it is not regulatory mandated, it is the time to do good scenarios you would otherwise not be able to do just filling boxes on an annual training.
Better trained is better trained in any field of work. And that is a fact. Well enough on that topic.
Myself, I prefer to stay current with self study and occasional flight deck drills so I am not rusty at 5 or 11 months. What else is there to do on crossings...
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flaps78
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by flaps78 »

To get back to the subject:

Airlines fly aircraft to make $$$. Private operators operate aircraft due to poor/ nil airline service, privacy etc. As the airlines improve service between different cities it becomes more difficult for the corporate operators to compete re cost. Look at YYC - YYZ frequency and business class cost vs a corpoorate jet. The bean counters do look at the cost/ per flight.I flew corporate for 28 years and was made redundant twice. I was treated well and paid well. No regrets. I also flew for an aircraft management company ( SKY/ Nortel). While I was treated well at SKY, the salary and benefits were substantially below the corporates that I worked for.

The last thing to look at is job security. While there are a lot of great corporate operators out there, there are far fewer now than in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Many of the "Legacy" corporate flight departments i.e. Imperial Oil/ ESSO, Shell Oil, Suncor, Chevron, Amoco, Nortel etc are gone. Surprising that most of the corporate oil flight departments did not shut down due to the low cost of oil but rather because of management companies, bean counters trying to reduce cost and improved airline service.

Good luck on whatever decision you make.

Flaps 78
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wallypilot
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by wallypilot »

Just as an observation, I’ve never seen (well, on my short 20yrs around YVR) so much heavy metal on the premises, and planned new additions. Corporate has gone through some ups and downs, and does follow boom and bust cycles a little, it commercial airlines are entirely helping corporate operations as it is so painful and such a time waste to travel airlines if you are able to afford an alternative.

Just my $.02.
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rippey
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by rippey »

I think one of the larger changes that has occurred over the past 10 years is that most of the business aircraft being added to the Canadian fleet are owned by high net worth individuals rather than corporations. There are advantages and disadvantages to this - the biggest advantage is that the owner doesn't have to justify the expense to the bean counters and shareholders. Try explaining to the accountants why it cost $120,000 in doc's to fly 3 people from Toronto to a meeting in London when air Canada fired business class seats over there a dozen times that day for a tenth of the cost or less.
Provided that the management company has been somewhat honest in educating owners about the true cost of operating their shiny new toy, I think the job stability can be as good, or better in some cases than true corporate operators. Unfortunately there are a number of owners that didn't get the memo that the 2 million they spent on that 25 year old challenger is just the cover charge to get in the party, and that landing 400 hrs of charter to pay for the 50 hrs they plan on using it isn't going to happen.
Of course the biggest disadvantage is that is that it has become increasingly difficult to get set up with your own 604 ticket since TC took it back, and you have no chance of doing charter to offset some of your costs unless you take it to a management company. The unfortunate thing for us pilots is there are very few costs that can be negotiated when a management company is bidding for a new aircraft to join the fleet without hurting their bottom line, but payroll offers some wiggle room. This is why the salary and benefits package at the management companies will seldom if ever be competitive with the corporate departments. It can still be great if you fly for a good owner that values skill and experience and is willing to pay to keep it, it can be terrible if you get an owner that is looking for the cheapest warm bodies that can occupy front seats. I work for a management company, fly a fantastic airplane all over the world, work with great people, really like the owner I fly for, and genuinely love every minute of my job, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't shed a little tear when I see what other guys are making in the same seat of the same type I fly. I learned early in this industry that who you work for is far more important than the numbers on my paycheck, and I am 100% sure I am happier where I am than I'd be at the airlines, but to each their own. That being said, if you are looking to make it into 250k/yr crowd I'd stick to airlines, it exists in corporate, but getting there is going to depend mostly on luck than just biding your time watching your number go up.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
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drivers driver
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by drivers driver »

I totally agree with "JohnnyHotRocks", at less in some case, this is happening.
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wallypilot
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by wallypilot »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
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Broker
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by Broker »

wallypilot wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
There are management companies that are transparent in disclosure to their clients as well. In those cases, salaries and benefits are flow through charges, no mark-up and no withhold. Salary skimming is getting more difficult with increasing transparency.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by skybluetrek »

Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
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wallypilot
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by wallypilot »

skybluetrek wrote:Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
You make it sound like flying a jet for a management Co is bad. But in all honesty, there are great jobs in corporate and crappy jobs in corporate and every shade in between. Just like airlines, even within the same airline, there are crappy jobs and good jobs. Same goes for a management company. There are good and bad management companies, and within those companies there are good and bad jobs. The key in corporate is not so much the aircraft type, as the owner. Everything depends on the behavior, demeanor, and personality of the owner. If you have a good owner, you will have a good job, whether it’s a Twin Cessna, PC12, Challenger or a BBJ, and no matter if it’s a managed or private op. I know guys that make more as a PC12 capt for a private 604 op than some guys make as capt on a challenger 300 for a fractional operation.

But to answer your original question, I would expect pay in a management company to be lower on a turbo prop than a jet. But that’s not guaranteed, and it also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job.
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skkfdk
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by skkfdk »

Perhaps thanks to the airlines and their growth and massive hiring , it could potentially see a positive change in pay and conditions in the industry.

Just a optimistic thought. Now growth in Canadian economy is another subject somewhere else.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by JeppsOnFire »

skkfdk wrote:Perhaps thanks to the airlines and their growth and massive hiring , it could potentially see a positive change in pay and conditions in the industry.

Just a optimistic thought. Now growth in Canadian economy is another subject somewhere else.
This is certainly already happening. Seems the popular idea right now is airlines. Even some well paid Corp jet folks are heading over to the airlines. Not sure what the motivation is - perhaps just a change of lifestyle. The lack of schedule in many cases is the primary reason. In turn - jobs at the corporate level have been difficult to fill and the options have become plentiful. Also, salaries have seen the biggest jump I've ever seen. Headhunting has also begun and the carrot this time around is fat salaries. I'm a corporate jet guy with plenty of experience and the jet world is my oyster. I can pretty much take any job tailored to what's important to me with the bonus of making more money than ever before.

The whole industry from airlines to 703 has felt the change.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by nottellin »

The problem with those increase is they can be snatched away at the blink of an eye, A little harder in a unionized airline environment. A great Corporate job can turn into a crappy corporate job pretty quickly. Thats why I bailed. The only thing I miss is the hotels and rental cars.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by skybluetrek »

wallypilot wrote:
skybluetrek wrote:Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
You make it sound like flying a jet for a management Co is bad. But in all honesty, there are great jobs in corporate and crappy jobs in corporate and every shade in between. Just like airlines, even within the same airline, there are crappy jobs and good jobs. Same goes for a management company. There are good and bad management companies, and within those companies there are good and bad jobs. The key in corporate is not so much the aircraft type, as the owner. Everything depends on the behavior, demeanor, and personality of the owner. If you have a good owner, you will have a good job, whether it’s a Twin Cessna, PC12, Challenger or a BBJ, and no matter if it’s a managed or private op. I know guys that make more as a PC12 capt for a private 604 op than some guys make as capt on a challenger 300 for a fractional operation.

But to answer your original question, I would expect pay in a management company to be lower on a turbo prop than a jet. But that’s not guaranteed, and it also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job.
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
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nottellin
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by nottellin »

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Last edited by nottellin on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nottellin
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by nottellin »

skybluetrek wrote: Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
Thats what I thought :roll:
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skybluetrek
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

Post by skybluetrek »

nottellin wrote:
skybluetrek wrote: Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
Thats what I thought :roll:
And I guess it wasn't the case...? :goodman:
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