Katrina and the mess she left.

[LH]

North Shore ------that was not a problem with me because there are a host of others that also don't know that about the National Guard and that doesn't make them or you stupid......you just weren't aware, that's all.....so "no sweat" with that.

Also remember that even if ALL of the National Guard of LA, TN, MS and FL were away in Iraq, it would still be no excuse for what has transpired and would cause no problems. A two hour drive will get you from Tyler, TX to Baton Rouge, LA ....and that's just 90 miles from New Orleans and also the seat of the present government and Mayor of New Orleans........and he's completely fed-up with the Federal response.

They also have the "Americal Division" and to give to some idea of their resources and size, consider this: They are a COMPLETE Army in and of themselves......they have everything that many countries would have in their entire Army......they have it ALL and need support from no other element of the US military. They also call Ft. Hood, TX their home base and that ain't a long drive from there to New Orleans. They also have their own equipment and supplies that enables them to come by sea, air, land or alll three at once. Remember also that many of the States are small and moving across 3-4 of them in one day is no problem whatsoever and one doesn't have to drive like a fool to do so.

The resources have been there but there's been no direction "from on high". THIS TIME Georgie boy even got some of the most conservative Republican newspapers raking him over the coals on this one and he ain't talking his way outta this one. Let's see now how quickly his request for another $85B for Iraq gets approved based on his reaction and speed concerning the welfare of his own citizens has demonstrated.

[. .]

LH: excellent post. I wonder if bush will be able to place the blame of FEMA and get off scott free. The guy is a true champion at passing the buck.

[Navajo-dude]

But George Bush is a KILLER, what would he do?

And Saddam wasn't?

[LH]

endless------George Bush is not the American government.....he's only the Executive Branch. The other two are the Represenatatives and the Senate....and they number over 500. I'd just love to dump all this inaction and fiasco at Bush's feet, but he's got lots of company on this one. That is unless one believes that the American government is frozen cock-stiff unless the man in the Oval Office speaks from on high. Anyone believes that should make an offer for that bridge that's for sale in Brooklyn.

We are talking here about the most powerful nation the world has ever known and in more than things "military". There is just no excuse at all for people in that area to be looking for food, clothing and potable water FIVE days after a natural disaster. This didn't apear overnite like some tornado touching down. They saw this hurricane coming days before it reached New Orleans and they are just now moving to action. Well sorry, but I was a member of that military at one time and I know better. The 2nd largest helicopter company in the world has it's HQ at Lafayette, LA and also have a mjor base at Morgan City, LA. They have had a/c of ALL sizes waiting to be called and directed as to where to assist for the last 5 days...........and still nothing. I could go on, but what's the point. It is by definition what is termed a "cluster f**k and a total embarrassment to a nation...........and they are starting to realize that now.

[mellow_pilot]

On a cheery note this what Canada's official military aid looks like
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Operations ... news_e.asp

Cheers to all helping out, civillian and military

[LH]

Two useless Griffons and a 1955 Hercules 130.....bettter they send down the useful personnel and equipment on a commerical flight and leave the embarrassments at home. God help us.

[bumffs]

Three busloads of jane and finch residents from toronto have gone to new orleans to aid in the looting and shooting at police/army national guard.
Also they will be taking some much needed crack and crack-whores,

[grouchy]

I see opportunity here. We could be in Washington and dictating peace terms from the white house with an opening of a second front with a drive down Lake Champlain. Man I wish I was dictator of Canada. How many opportunities come along in a life time like this?

[CID]

Two useless Griffons and a 1955 Hercules 130

Glad to see there are so many positive thinkers here! So how new does your C-130 need to be to haul food and water?

[LH]

CiID....the CAF have 13 Hercules 130's and all are the first models that saw the light of day. Until recently only 2 were flying because they found cracks in the spars. Two were corrected forthwith to be available for S&R and the remainder sat until monies were made available to do the O/H's. It's not the age, but the skimpy budgets that have been allocated to the CAF. That can only carry on for so long and then like the FRAM commercial on TV says...." pay me now or you pay me later, BUT you will pay".

As a sidenote, the PMO will not let the PM fly on the Hercules or the SeaKing and it's been like that for some time. They do, however, have no problem sending members of the CAF onboard those a/c.

[CID]

LH,

I am familiar with Canada's military fleet. So tell me why they aren't capable of supporting the transfer of aid to Louisiana?

As a sidenote, the PMO will not let the PM fly on the Hercules or the SeaKing and it's been like that for some time. They do, however, have no problem sending members of the CAF onboard those a/c.

Members of the CAF are paid to endure a certain amount of risk. The PM isn't. If I recall correctly, the PM only flys on civil registered aircraft because they are maintained in accordance with civil aviation standards.

The old Hercs and Sea Kings are not civil registered and they are maintained and operated in accordance with military standards which are optimized for mission practicality and not neccessarily for safety like civil aircraft are.

Do you think its would be a good idea to fly the PM around in a CF-18?

[mellow_pilot]

PM flies in Challengers and the Polaris (A310) all the time. He also rode round in Griffins a couple time at Kananaskis. All these A/C are military and are maintained in accordance with the appropriate regs. Just like the Cormorants that rescue people after their civil maintained airplanes crash.

I'd like to see you tell a Military tech his work is not 'optimized for safety'.

[. .]

I totally disagree that military planes aren't maintained for optimized safety. Thinking otherwise is just foolish. I actually got a kick out of that one.

[LH]

Gentlemen, first of all I didn't mention anything about the more modern a/c that you have mentioned. Secondly, the leader of no nation flies around in fighters to go from place to place or attend functions. If and when they do, it's the exception and not the rule. Thirdly, "do not go there with me" on the state of the SeaKings or the frustrations that the maintainance techs have getting parts for something that flew down Halifax Harbour brand new in 1963. I too know EXACTLY what I am talking about with regards the Almighty budgets for the CAF and they are a national embarrassment. Having members of the PPCLI having to visit the Food bank in Winnipeg was normal until it reached the Press and then it was stopped......and you damn well know why.

I'm aware of the Cormorant because I flown one for a company considering them for purchase, so don't get ridiculous about something that is "state of the art" as is the S-92 recently purchased. The F-18 are now going through a refit for their electronics and warfare suites, but only necessitated because we were unable to work with our allies because they were obsolete by years. They operated over Bosnia ONLY because they borrowed the necessary equipment from the US......otherwise they were useless and wouldn't have been allowed to go anywhere. The A-310's are not old or obsolete; the Challengers are also not old and were recently purchased, but due note is taken that while the SeaKings floated in limbo, Mssr. Chretin went out and bought them without even committing it to bid while the Seakings were then a "joke" and unsafe. Christ you have the grandsons of some of the original pilots still flying the exact same a/c their grandfathers flew.

The PM of Canada has travelled on the SeaKing in the past.....so check your own facts. The restriction on Chretin's travel in recent years came directly from the PMO and was because of who he is and their history of 10% serviceability.


.....and Mellow_Pilot, I suggest YOU say exactly what your last sentence was to a military tech who has to maintain those SeaKings and then sit down, grab a coffee and get ready for a bloody earful.......as long as it's out of the hearing of some Officer. Lastly all, I grew up on the East Coast and I know and saw what the RCN was at one time and I see what it has become now and it's enough to make a buzzard puke. It's one Hell of a way to treat good people and then wonder why you can't retain them. Try putting your ass in one out over the North Atlantic, knowing that they won't "cut-it" on one engine and even with two working their reliability rate is scary.

Come to Winnipeg and pontificate about how safe and wonderdul you think the Hercs are. Great a/c, even though the model they have has "seen it's day", but if you don't have the needed budgets, then it's damn difficult after awhile "to make chicken salad outta chicken shit". How are you going to make the extensive inspections for main spar cracks when there's no budget to do so and the a/c are needed all the time. Doesn't anyone ask themselves how come we incurred a bill of $35M USD transporting our troops to and from Afghanistan when they first went there.......and if it wasn't for the Americans, we couldm't have went because World Airways had nothing available AGAIN on short notice.

[Nark]

I thought I'd chime in, since you're talking about America and Military aviation. Who better to add something than me, being in the USMC Air Wing?

Yes Canada's Military Force is lacking in many, many area's, however they are putting an effort to help those stranded in the wake of Katrina. Even if they send one soldier with a tin of Tim Hortons coffee, that is helping the effort.

Ask yourself, what are YOU doing to help? I require my Marines in my shop 4 hours of volunteer service a month. Katrina isn't the only problem needing attention.

Cheers
Tackleberry.

[hazatude]

Didn't Canada win William Tell a few years back with shit AC...

[LH]

nark ----well said. I'd offer my time and skills, but unfortunately that contribution would make me "time-out" on my flying hours once I returned back to my flying duties here at home. America will have to be satisfied with the contributions of my brother onsite at this moment with his organization and my two tours in Vietnam with the 1st Air Cav. I have no more to give.

Hazendude------it's when Canadians such as you speak that I realize why the government does what it does and narry a word from "Joe Canadian" because he doesn't care either. Four modern ships to defend 210,000kms of coastline, a large part of which is in Arctic and northern waters and NOT ONE of them that can operate in that enviroment; 64 F-18's that are just now being upgraded so they can work with the Allies and on any given day a maximum of 32 that are "Operational"; enough ammunition for the troops to last ONE week; STILL operating SeaKings that first flew down Halifax Harbour when I was in Grade XII....and I'm 61 now; supply ships that are as old as the SeaKings (and all this is just for an opening "entree"). Also take note of the ships they sent down to New orleans.....they are the most modern, state-of-the-art ones that we have.......are half our viable Navy....can make it back home though......and I sure as hell hope nobody attacks us in the meantime because then we're in some REAL deep shit and couldn't fend-off an attack from the Montana Air National Guard or Iceland.

[mellow_pilot]

LH, i appreciate the consraints of the canadian military at this point in time, and I have acutually talked to afew in the people airforce as that is my intended career. I know that military techs are required to do more with less. And given the opportunity many will and have blown the whistle on problems within the system. Still, the techs perform above and beyond on a constant basis, given their circumstance. As a good friend once said of the RCAF, nothing in the military would fly without the sayso of a private...

as far as I know that sentiment remains true.

And ya, we won William Tell, we sent 4 and placed 1st through 4th. We were not invited back the next year...

Cheers Dave, wherever you are. I'm still proud of you.

[grouchy]

LH, I guess my plans for world domination will have to wait.

[CID]

PM flies in Challengers and the Polaris (A310) all the time. He also rode round in Griffins a couple time at Kananaskis. All these A/C are military and are maintained in accordance with the appropriate regs. Just like the Cormorants that rescue people after their civil maintained airplanes crash.

The Challengers and Polaris aircraft are maintained in accordance with civil aviation standards. This method was adopted years ago after the DND found they couldn't sell their old Challengers to civil markets because they had no civil aviation maintenance records. I was told (by CAF personnel) that the goal was to maintain all transport aircraft that transport civilians within the CARS.

How could you expect to sell a Challenger after it's seen military service?

There was a document developed by the DND to address the matter and it resulted in the revamping of the entire program. It has since been recinded because it was replace with the actual procedures, but it is the best document to describe the process.

http://admmatapp.dnd.ca/taa/docs/archiv ... IPTION.DOC

The PM of Canada has travelled on the SeaKing in the past.....so check your own facts. The restriction on Chretin's travel in recent years came directly from the PMO and was because of who he is and their history of 10% serviceability.

I did check my facts. I was speaking in the present tense, not historically.

I totally disagree that military planes aren't maintained for optimized safety. Thinking otherwise is just foolish. I actually got a kick out of that one.

You can disagree, but the military comes right out and says it.

6.2 The DND/CF Airworthiness Program is based on concepts and principles used by civil and military airworthiness authorities world-wide. Where necessary these concepts have been tailored to meet the unique needs of DND and the CF. The application of these concepts is similar to the methods employed by civil aviation (Transport Canada). For example, civil aviation regulatory authorities establish airworthiness regulations, orders, directives and standards to achieve an acceptable level of aviation safety for categories of aircraft such as large passenger carrying transport aircraft. An aircraft type certificate and airline operating certificate are only provided after it has been demonstrated that the aircraft type and the intended operation meet or exceed the required regulations, orders and standards. The airworthiness regulatory authority (Transport Canada) then enforces the regulations, orders, directives and standards to ensure that the required level of safety continues to be maintained. In a like manner, the DND and the CF will type certify its aircraft and establish rules and standards of safety for the design, manufacture, maintenance and operation of those aircraft. Due to the wide range of aircraft types and roles that the CF operates, the DND/CF Airworthiness Program will need to include regulations, orders, directives and standards which apply uniquely to military operational situations such as:

 carriage and delivery of weapons;

 special equipment including ejection seats, night vision goggles (NVG), personnel winches, etc;

 hoisting of personnel by helicopter; and

 special missions such as coastal patrol, target towing, electronic warfare support, etc.

6.3 This program recognizes that the operational demands and environment of military aviation may require the acceptance of a higher level of risk than that specified for an equivalent civil aircraft. Furthermore, military operations demand sufficient flexibility in the application of airworthiness regulations, orders, directives and standards to permit operational commanders to respond to rapidly changing circumstances to meet specific mission requirements. Examples are:

 Protection of lives - SAR, disaster relief and medevac; and
 Emergency - war, invasion, riot or insurrection, real or apprehended,
as defined in the National Defence Act

When you board a fighter, often the only thing to do after a engine failure is to eject. Not quite as "safe" as an average airliner.

I'd like to see you tell a Military tech his work is not 'optimized for safety'.

Any military tech would much rather strap his wife and kids on a commercial flight than a military aircraft. Its just common sense that the military aircraft is inherently more dangerous. You don't have to believe me. Just look at the safety record of military airplanes even ones that are just conducting training.

[LH]

Gents, my problem is my age. I remember and saw with my own eyes what the Canadian Military used to be like. I remember them and their Tribal Class DE's that were MADE IN CANADA from bow to stern. I also remember the RCN having the BEST ASW(Anti-Submarine Warfare) Fleet in the world AND that was acknowledged by all our Allies INCLUDING the U.S. I also remember Canada re-engining the F-86 Sabres with an Orenda engine and flying the butts off of the USAF in Europe because they couldn't match the performance with their engines. I also remember those same RCAF crews taking the NATO gunnery trophy so many years in a row that they might as well have given them the damn trophy permenently. Yeah......I remember.

The fact our military a/c cannot be sold on the civilan market is nothing new at all and the exact same thing applies to US military a/c. The whole issue eminates from a "pissing contest" waaaaay back between the FAA and the Pentagon, where the FAA wanted to tell the Pentagon the way things would be done and some of those rules were not workable in a combat theatre.. The DoT/MoT just followed suit with the FAA which they do more times than not over the decades. The civilan helicopter industry in both countries would love to have some of the US Miltary Hueys that sit in huge numbers across the US, all preserved in Shrink-Wrap. There are thousands and all low-timers, BUT not one of them is allowed on the civilan market....except in a "Restricted" category not carrying passengers. So all that is old news. As I was in that military and flew those in Vietnam, I can state categorically that they were maintained up to and well beyond the standards that I receive flying them in the civilan world......they wanted for NOTHING and the "purse" was deep that made the budgets. I suppose their attitudes would have been like ours though if they had a strong neighbour to cover their butts all the time. Guess they drew the "short straw" on that one because we couldn't defend the State of North Dakota for them.

Our CAF personnel stand 2nd to no nation's personnel and that's been proven time and again. They are however, noted for one particular thing in Europe during NATO "Wargames" and Exercises.........being able to make-do and "jerry-rig" all manner of things in order to keep going. Laudable "Yes" and an attribute in wartime, BUT when it becomes the "modus operandi" of daily operations and continues moreso with each passing year, then "enough is enough" damn it. So until we have the ability to defend our OWN country, just what in the Hell are we doing sending "strained to the point of breaking" personnel and equipment across the seas to defend other people's borders. Aide the Americans in their time of need.....by all means, supposing we have to get it all there by row boat, but in the meantime let's try to have the ability to defend ONE province of Canada.

[hazatude]

I was simply stating that the quality of our fighting men outdoes the quality of our equipment. Should something be done about that? You bet your ass!

[LH]

Hazendude.....exactly! Take one dollar away from the National Health Care budget to so though and see what "Joe Canadian" thinks of that. The standard answer is..."why are we spending all this money on the military for their toys when people are waiting in hospitable hallways for treatment. Hell, any idiot knows who's going to protect us anyway, so why waste the money?"

[Nightshiftzombie]

I have a news flash: The Cold War ended 15 years ago.

What country is rubbing their hands together like a James Bond villian and preparing to invade Cape Breton? Do we need a 100,000 man Army to protect us from Denmark? Do we need submarines and Anti-Sub helicopters to fight terrorists? What force of intercontinental bombers do we need hundreds of Fighters to defend us from?


The millitary is like insurance, you shouldn't waste your money having any more than you absolutly need.

[goates]

I have a news flash: The Cold War ended 15 years ago.

What country is rubbing their hands together like a James Bond villian and preparing to invade Cape Breton? Do we need a 100,000 man Army to protect us from Denmark? Do we need submarines and Anti-Sub helicopters to fight terrorists? What force of intercontinental bombers do we need hundreds of Fighters to defend us from?


The millitary is like insurance, you shouldn't waste your money having any more than you absolutly need.

Yep, the Cold War is over. However the World hasn't gotten any safer.

Do we have anyone trying to invade us? No. We could, however, very easily need a large, well organized force to help with a disaster on the same scale as New Orleans. Do we have that?

What about patrolling our coastline against human smugglers and foreign fishing boats? Or should just anyone be allowed to sail into our waters at will and drop off hundreds of illegal immigrants or do even more damage to the fish stocks? Subs are quite good at looking for things like this. Not to mention the Northwest Passage is slowly opening up. If we want to claim it as ours, we had better be able to control it.

As 9/11 showed, you don't need to defend against hundreds of intercontinental bombers, but might need to defend against airliners turned into cruise missiles. Again, hundreds of fighters is overkill, but we don't have enough to adequately patrol our own airpsace.

And don't foget any peacekeeping missions that we might want to particitpate in while still having to worry about the cases above.