NavAir Grounded in YYC???

broompusher · Post by **broompusher** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:00 pm

I heard that NavAir's Calgary fleet has been grounded. I don't know if there's any truth to this, just wondering if anyone can confirm this or debunk it as rumor.

FuelLeak · Post by **FuelLeak** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:39 pm

Nav got ramped by TC last week.
Sounds like TC pulled there A0C.

MRO · Post by **MRO** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:22 am

Its nothing huge just some trim indicators that were u/s and a few other details. They will be up and running by monday. Until then everyone else is covering for them.

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:56 am

Its nothing huge just some trim indicators that were u/s and a few other details.

Nothing "huge"? How many pilots out there would launch with trim indicators unservicable?

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:19 am

"Nothing "huge"? How many pilots out there would launch with trim indicators unservicable?"

If you need a needle to tell you your plane is trimmed out you've got other problems...

I can't remember the last time I looked at a trim indicator let alone used it to check if my plane was trimmed out... 3 pulls before blasting off and the rest of the way by feel...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:50 am

" Nothing "huge"? How many pilots out there would launch with trim indicators unservicable? "

You gonna be out ramp checking again today after you get your paper work done CID?

Cat

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:52 am

altiplano wrote:"Nothing "huge"? How many pilots out there would launch with trim indicators unservicable?"

If you need a needle to tell you your plane is trimmed out you've got other problems...

I can't remember the last time I looked at a trim indicator let alone used it to check if my plane was trimmed out... 3 pulls before blasting off and the rest of the way by feel...

I assume you've not flown anything over 12,500 lbs?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:23 am

" I assume you've not flown anything over 12,500 lbs? "

Does Navair operate stuff over 12,500 now?

I bet B. would give you a raise in pay if you got back in your Navawhore and found a trim indicator that did not work and refused to fly it.....

Yeh, that would be interesting.

Just gotta love these discussions.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:33 am

run it all the way forward then back 3 1/2 turns and adjust for the load. similiar thread here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... ght=navajo

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:46 am

I can't remember looking at trim indicators on most planes until recently. The one I'm on now has a visual check as part of the walkaround but seeing as NavAir doesn't operate those, it does not strike me as a huge deal. TC just looking for anything to close NavAir down. Haven't yet!

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:55 am

From what I know (I could be wrong) Nav Air operates MU-2s. A nasty airplane to suffer a trim run-away in. Or even worse, a mistrimmed take off. If I recall, the MU-2 had trim-in-motion lights installed by AD because of such problems. If the trim indication system doesn't work, what are the chances that the trim-in-motion indication system works?

So when you heros set your trims prior to takeoff don't you care if the trim indicator is actually displaying the truth? Even on a lowly 'ho?

On many advanced airplanes (yes even small ones) lack of trim indication is a serious issue. Its a no-go on pretty much any airplane. Any maintenance guy who signs off such an airplane is breaking the law. My guess that if such a defect was deferred it would be done with no paperwork trail so there is no way to nail the AME or to advise all the pilots of the problem.

In another thread we're discussing how some think that TC's purpose is to prevent accidents. Its a difficult task when the operators don't follow the rules themselves.

So again, TC gets blamed for grounding an unsafe airline but if the airplane made a smoking hole, TC would be blamed for neglect.

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:56 am

Don't they operate clapped out rice rockets too? I saw one of theirs in foreskinjohn i think it was. The stab boots were patches on top of patches on top of patches, some nice oil leaks, long cracks that haven't been stop-drilled, etc etc etc. Isn't it an art keeping the MU2 in the air? Wouldn't a trim indicator be important?

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:19 am

Cat Driver wrote:" I assume you've not flown anything over 12,500 lbs? "

Does Navair operate stuff over 12,500 now?

I bet B. would give you a raise in pay if you got back in your Navawhore and found a trim indicator that did not work and refused to fly it.....

Yeh, that would be interesting.

Just gotta love these discussions.

Cat, altiplano didn't mention any specific aircraft. He said "3 pulls before blasting off and the rest of the way by feel...", which is hard to do with electric or hydraulic trims on larger aircraft. If I'm about to takeoff with an aircraft with these types of trims, I'd sure like an accurate gauge to tell me my trims are set properly.

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:33 am

ok guys lets not make a big deal of this. Just dont let this thread become a NavAir bash. They are good guys with equipment that works just fine

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:37 am

Ever try a T/O with a King Air 100 out of trim and the out of trim horn not working? you'll wish you had taken that second to look.

Cheers.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:39 am

ils09 wrote:ok guys lets not make a big deal of this. Just dont let this thread become a NavAir bash. They are good guys with equipment that works just fine

So why are they grounded then?

2low · Post by **2low** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:42 am

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:54 am

actually I know them and the equipment quite well. They are just somewhat adaptable. Do i agree with some stuff that they get away with? No. But bashing them isnt going to get anyone anywhere. They are our brothers too so maybe you should act like it and give them some support.

haligoner · Post by **haligoner** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:55 am

BWAHAHAHA!

Listening to you dumbasses talk about planes like the MU2 when you've never flown it is PAINFUL! I wonder if you even know, for example, that it doesn't have aileron trim, it has trim ailerons? Or even know what that means? In thousands of hours of flying them years ago, MU2's and Navajoes, I NEVER once set trim by looking at the indicator. I would exercise it full range first thing in the morning and then verify a neutral position on the walkaround. The trim indicator is only designed to get the trim into a very wide, general range and make sure it isn't at either limit, it's not some precision instrument that you're supposed to bet your life on! If you can't SEE that on a walkaround, you're an idiot, and if you do take off with either of these machines COMPLETELY out of trim, you're also an idiot, but it's still gonna be manageable - these simply are not transport-category a/c with such wide c of g, weight, and arm limits that trim is critical. Heresy you say? Certainly, it's good airmanship to operate in trim, but treating a trim indicator on a HO like it's a crucial item for dispatch is only displaying one's operational ignorance and inexperience. I know this attitude infuriates the legalists, but there you go. Write 'em up TC, technically they're in the wrong!

Part of TC's problem is that they attract the "book-pilots" who think that every aircraft has the same operational requirements. Where the f^5k is the common sense?!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:56 am

Golden Hawk :

My post was tounge in cheek.....

Just read between the lines in this comment I made..

"I bet B. would give you a raise in pay if you got back in your Navawhore and found a trim indicator that did not work and refused to fly it..... "

All I was doing was posing the delemma that a pilot might be faced with had a trim indicator in a Navajo suddenly quit working.....

I am not in any way advocating flying any airplane with a defect...the answer is to snag it and have maintenance make the decision whether to defer or fix.... however in the real world of flying things are not always black or white...sometimes young pilots are faced with decisions that are very hard for them to make...get the drift of where I was going with this....

Now this post poses another question.

Nav got ramped by TC last week.
Sounds like TC pulled there A0C.

How would TC find a unserviceable trim indicator on a ramp check?

Cat

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:06 am

If u have a problem with Navair's Equipment maybe u should walk down the ramp have have a look at Dynamic

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:56 am

Agree Cat, there's two issues; idealism and realism.

Idealism - something doesn't work and if not no go and get praised for safety.

Realism - something doesn't work, and if no go pilot weighs safety vs. career (not usually taught in PDM or CRM)

Sad but true I guess.

As for B., don't know well enough to make that bet.

And, as for TC investigative skills.............no comment.

bee tee · Post by **bee tee** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:58 am

Trimming is for pussies!!!

tink · Post by **tink** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:34 pm

Well I don't about the rest of u but I like trimmed pussies!!

bee tee · Post by **bee tee** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:53 pm

Is "trimmed pussies" slang for well-groomed pilot?