Professionalism

[altiplano]

It's funny you expect every quality of a professional to be included in a website definition.

If someone has to tell you to act with some decorum, or not to look like a slob then the rest of the definition doesn't matter.

[Impact]

digits, I invite you to go back and re-read my posts. There you'll find that I'm not focusing solely on appearance. For some reason, you think I am.

So what pay (specific $ value) did you personally think would provide enough incentive for a person to start acting professionally? You mentioned Jazz and AC F/O pay, but since I don't have that data handy, could you provide that number? Why, BTW, can someone working a minimum wage job act in an entirely professional manner?

I noticed that you did indeed google my first example. Good for you! Trouble is, it was a job resources website, and really didn't get into the other aspects of what professionalism is. I encourage you to keep up your research, and expand on more than just one resource.

On another note, I as a customer, want to deal with someone who not only appears to be a professional, but more importantly acts with professionalism, whether it's a trade, a Doctor, or the kid I hire to cut my grass. I think most people do. That's why when you look at reviews on a prospective company you want to hire, the top reviews usually have statements along the lines of "very professional" (or the attributes that define what professionalism looks like). Wouldn't you agree?

[digits_]

digits, I invite you to go back and re-read my posts. There you'll find that I'm not focusing solely on appearance. For some reason, you think I am.

So what pay (specific $ value) did you personally think would provide enough incentive for a person to start acting professionally? You mentioned Jazz and AC F/O pay, but since I don't have that data handy, could you provide that number? Why, BTW, can someone working a minimum wage job act in an entirely professional manner?

I noticed that you did indeed google my first example. Good for you! Trouble is, it was a job resources website, and really didn't get into the other aspects of what professionalism is. I encourage you to keep up your research, and expand on more than just one resource.

On another note, I as a customer, want to deal with someone who not only appears to be a professional, but more importantly acts with professionalism, whether it's a trade, a Doctor, or the kid I hire to cut my grass. I think most people do. That's why when you look at reviews on a prospective company you want to hire, the top reviews usually have statements along the lines of "very professional" (or the attributes that define what professionalism looks like). Wouldn't you agree?

I don't work for those companies, so I don't have exact numbers. I do know the difference is significant, based on second hand information.

While working for minimum wage, you can absolutely be professional and look professional, but you would probably not care as much about appearances if the guy next door does the same job for 50% more money for example.

Pilots work for the company, not for the customers. The appearance of a pilot is irrelevant in deciding wether or not he does his duties correctly and safely. It is important for company image. I would not call a pilot wearing a wrinkled uniform unprofessional. If you call a pilot unprofessional, it brings the image of cowboys, being unsafe, no flying skills to mind. None of those things are linked to how (s)he looks.

Another aspect: those pilots are probably unionized, which might encourage the mindset of "it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you don't do anything to get fired", as upgrades, bidding etc is all seniority based anyway. You take away the drive to strive for excellence.

To be clear: I don't agree with all that, and I hope I'd never got to that point, but I can understand why people won't care about a pristine uniform.

[infiniteregulus]

I think it's just that. They don't care. All things aside from mending to a particular label such as "professional", the core principle is taking care in how you present yourself to the world and ultimately representing your profession. I couldn't care less about company image so much as I'm more concerned about pilots in general. I know medevac, military, bush, blah blah are an exception, but in a different way, I get it and I agree, but they're in a different spotlight in the public eye. There's expectations for them to be dressed a certain way, just as there's expectations for airline pilots to be. Yes WAWCON can play a factor in one's appearance and cares. Visit any Walmart if you want an example of that. But at least look presentable. Like ironing a dress shirt...it's not that complicated and takes 2 minutes. I'm well aware the airlines are not the military, but there should at least be a minimum standard of presentation, which many do, and ironed shirts I guarantee is on every one of them. It depends really where the line is drawn. Dress shirts with ketchup stains and holes is an obvious no no. Ask the FAs how they're graded on performance. A HUGE aspect of their assessments are public image, such as cuff lengths being within cm's of a standard. They are in the public eye and represent. Really I'm just noticing less and less class being displayed these days. I'd say 99% are still spot on, but it's always that 1% that are troublesome. Food for thought I suppose and just something to consider. Really it's very minuscule to what we do which is safe operation of the aircraft and that's number 1. But we're all licensed and that's expected of us, so a true professional with integrity and care will go above and beyond to strive for greater.

[GRK2]

Ace McCool.jpg (24.02 KiB) Viewed 2435 times

What about this guy? Does he make your grade?

[infiniteregulus]

As long as he serves the lobsters as per his hat

[WeedPro2000]

I'd say 99% are still spot on, but it's always that 1% that are troublesome.

I think this sentence perfectly illustrates the well known fact that 95% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot.

[infiniteregulus]

100% correct

[complexintentions]

While working for minimum wage, you can absolutely be professional and look professional, but you would probably not care as much about appearances if the guy next door does the same job for 50% more money for example.

What a pathetic commentary.

I equate professionalism heavily with self-respect. I've done many jobs prior to aviation and always believed it was important to do them to the best of my ability regardless of the perceived status of the job or the level of compensation. And I've done some pretty damn menial jobs. Always show up on time, show respect for the position of the person in charge (even if the actual PERSON is an asshat), dress appropriately to the job, and do it to the maximum level of competence.

And it's not difficult to do because I'm doing all that for myself, not for the employer. Certainly, they benefit from my efforts, but that's not why I do it. I'd just feel shitty about myself if I gave less than my best effort. That goes for every aspect of the job including dress and deportment. Funnily enough, this attitude and approach has led to positions of ever-increasing responsibility and compensation.

That's why I feel sorry for the poor losers who claim their excuse for not bothering to iron a shirt or whatever is that their company disrespects them by not paying them what they feel they "deserve". I've heard several variations on the same theme in this thread. Perhaps it's generational - Walmart was mentioned, I find that if I go there and there's some elderly gent working as "only" a greeter, he's still in a neatly pressed shirt and pants, and unfailingly polite and solicitous. And I'm pretty sure he's not making as much as some of the skygod rockstars here.

Bottom line, do or think whatever the hell you want, but...how can you expect your employer (or anyone, really) to respect you if you don't respect yourself, and display that fact so blatantly to the world?

[C.W.E.]

That's why I feel sorry for the poor losers who claim their excuse for not bothering to iron a shirt or whatever is that their company disrespects them by not paying them what they feel they "deserve".

Truth is they are being paid more than they deserve in some cases.

[confusedalot]

I would settle for looking ''normal''

Got to Tims for a coffee, they all look professional and normal
Go to the tire place, they all look professional and normal, even if they are in dirty overalls because, guess what, it is normal to be in dirty overalls.
Go to the bank, professional and normal.
Go to a restaurant, professional and normal.
And on and on and on and on.


No, I am sad to say that some pilots, and I was one (looking normal), at times appear to act like slobs. Unattractive behavior indeed.

[HansDietrich]

Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks

Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.

[momnosam7]

Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks

Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.

Wow - you seem to be in the wrong profession. Are you this miserable about the rest of your life? Wait - don't answer ----- I can guess.

[dogfood]

This thread is hillarious.. poor old guys trying to hang on to the aviation from the past. Being a pilot is like a minimum wage job I never gave a crap how my uniform looked stocking shelves at the grocery store and I didn't when I took the pay cut for my first aviation job. If you want professionalism pay me more than the guy that pours me my coffee from Tim's

[av8ts]

While working for minimum wage, you can absolutely be professional and look professional, but you would probably not care as much about appearances if the guy next door does the same job for 50% more money for example.

What a pathetic commentary.

I equate professionalism heavily with self-respect. I've done many jobs prior to aviation and always believed it was important to do them to the best of my ability regardless of the perceived status of the job or the level of compensation. And I've done some pretty damn menial jobs. Always show up on time, show respect for the position of the person in charge (even if the actual PERSON is an asshat), dress appropriately to the job, and do it to the maximum level of competence.

And it's not difficult to do because I'm doing all that for myself, not for the employer. Certainly, they benefit from my efforts, but that's not why I do it. I'd just feel shitty about myself if I gave less than my best effort. That goes for every aspect of the job including dress and deportment. Funnily enough, this attitude and approach has led to positions of ever-increasing responsibility and compensation.

That's why I feel sorry for the poor losers who claim their excuse for not bothering to iron a shirt or whatever is that their company disrespects them by not paying them what they feel they "deserve". I've heard several variations on the same theme in this thread. Perhaps it's generational - Walmart was mentioned, I find that if I go there and there's some elderly gent working as "only" a greeter, he's still in a neatly pressed shirt and pants, and unfailingly polite and solicitous. And I'm pretty sure he's not making as much as some of the skygod rockstars here.

Bottom line, do or think whatever the hell you want, but...how can you expect your employer (or anyone, really) to respect you if you don't respect yourself, and display that fact so blatantly to the world?

+1. Nailed it

[av8ts]

Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks

Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.

This says so much about you. See complexintentions post above. He got it right

[complexintentions]

This thread is hillarious.. poor old guys trying to hang on to the aviation from the past. Being a pilot is like a minimum wage job I never gave a crap how my uniform looked stocking shelves at the grocery store and I didn't when I took the pay cut for my first aviation job. If you want professionalism pay me more than the guy that pours me my coffee from Tim's

Another one doomed to remain stuck in victim mode. Not sure I can see how looking like a slob helps further your cause for a pay rise? Some interesting logic there!

You just don't get it. It's got nothing to do with past, present, or future. You may not be able to get the pay or the aircraft or whatever thing du jour you think you're entitled to. You can't control that. That's just numbers and luck. But your attitude, conduct, and appearance - guess what, those are under your control. Not airy-fairy philosophizing, just a fact.

Hence, you lose respect from pretty much everyone when you demonstrate you don't give a shit about any of those. Don't care? That's fine. Just don't ask us to care that you can't seem to get more than an entry-level job!

[digits_]

Another one doomed to remain stuck in victim mode. Not sure I can see how looking like a slob helps further your cause for a pay rise? Some interesting logic there!

How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?

[tbayav8er]

I can see the point of view from both sides here for sure. However, personally, I agree with the fact that you should try to look as professional as possible, especially when in sight of the travelling public. I don't see any issue with wearing headphones and relaxing in a seat in the corner of an empty boarding lounge, especially if you have a 3-4 hour sit somewhere. Most people are great about keeping their uniform in a presentable state, but it does drive me nuts when I see people wearing shirts/blazers that are badly wrinkled, not clean etc. As others have said, it's not about how much your current employer is paying you, what your current WAWCON is like, etc....It's something that takes zero talent, but can make a difference in first impressions for people who see you from day to day.

[complexintentions]

How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?

Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck!