Professionalism

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Loner
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Loner »

It’s all about self-pride, self respect/esteem
Not based on pay-cheque nor professionalism
End of day, you chose how you want to be seen and your reputation will follow
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momnosam7
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Re: Professionalism

Post by momnosam7 »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am
How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck! :mrgreen:
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Professionalism

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

momnosam7 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:00 am
complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am
How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck! :mrgreen:
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
So much wrong with your Fox News'esque post, you haven't got a clue.

I agree sporting a set of oversized Dre's while loitering around the counter, bugging the agents, with an untucked, un-ironed shirt is the surefire sign someone needed a little more polishing before being released into public.

Perhaps pilots are streaming too fast through the system nowadays with less checks and balances - less respect for their position - and no one has called them on it in person.

But, this is not a generational thing, this is individually based. I've seen a lot of young professional pilots in my travels (airline and private), and I have yet to see one do as per the OP.

Keep your 'factually' based generational rant for your kids at Easter.

S.
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digits_
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Re: Professionalism

Post by digits_ »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.
Okay, so you said that looking like a slob doesn't help your cause for a pay raise. And dressing nice will not get you a pay raise. Conclusion: the way you dress is irrelevant to get a pay raise. Then why did you bring it up?

I'd also like to clarify that it is perfectly possible to understand, even agree with someone, without doing the exact same thing yourself. I would not go to work with a dirty shirt at an airline, or hang around the lounge with my feet up the chairs or whatever. I do, however, understand why other people do it.
complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.
Ok, you were a waiter. Did the other waiters in the area make 40% (or whatever significant number it is) more than you?
Also, your pay was directly dependending on how you looked (tips). It's not the exact same situation.

Or did the senior waiters vote to put you, the new guy, on a lesser pay scale so you can make more money, and then complaint that you aren't as motivated as they are? Things like A and B scales are extremely demotivating to the people on the lowest scale. If their disapprovement manifests itself in these little acts of disobedience or resistance, I can understand. And it would be much more preferred if they get rid of their frustration this way, instead of letting it affect their actions in the cockpit. That's actually a very professional attitude: to know where you can safely "rebel" and where you shouldn't.

Another question: if you (or the other pristine uniform supporters) were flying freight in the middle of the night. Would you still walk around with a pristine uniform? After all, it is all about self-pride and self-respect, right?
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
Maybe other people are secure enough in their abilities to do their job, that they do not care so much about their appearance or what people think of them, or "self-pride". Just because you need the validation of a pristine uniform to keep the old "catch-me-if-you-can" glory days going, doesn't mean other people need the same affirmation. I'd fly in jeans and a t shirt if they let me. (but note that I don't)
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Last edited by digits_ on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
momnosam7
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Re: Professionalism

Post by momnosam7 »

digits_ wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:59 am
complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.
Okay, so you said that looking like a slob doesn't help your cause for a pay raise. And dressing nice will not get you a pay raise. Conclusion: the way you dress is irrelevant to get a pay raise. Then why did you bring it up?

I'd also like to clarify that it is perfectly possible to understand, even agree with someone, without doing the exact same thing yourself. I would not go to work with a dirty shirt at an airline, or hang around the lounge with my feet up the chairs or whatever. I do, however, understand why other people do it.
complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.
Ok, you were a waiter. Did the other waiters in the area make 40% (or whatever significant number it is) more than you?
Also, your pay was directly dependending on how you looked (tips). It's not the exact same situation.

Another question: if you (or the other pristine uniform supporters) were flying freight in the middle of the night. Would you still walk around with a pristine uniform? After all, it is all about self-pride and self-respect, right?
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
Maybe other people are secure enough in their abilities to do their job, that they do not care so much about their appearance or what people think of them, or "self-pride". Just because you need the validation of a pristine uniform to keep the old "catch-me-if-you-can" glory days going, doesn't mean other people need the same affirmation. I'd fly in jeans and a t shirt if they let me. (but note that I don't)

Please leave our profession.
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digits_
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Re: Professionalism

Post by digits_ »

momnosam7 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:02 pm Please leave our profession.
Oh no. Someone on the internet has a different opinion than me. This makes me feel insecure. He should leave our profession! :rolleyes:
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Professionalism

Post by eyebrow737 »

Image
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Re: Professionalism

Post by C.W.E. »

The truck drivers have the same complaints that airplane drivers have, here is a post from a truck driver forum.
No one to blame but greedy truck owners and companies. You have paid peanuts for so long, cut each other’s throats on rates so you can get the load and pull it for pennies of profit per mile, and treated drivers not much better than slave labour.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by infiniteregulus »

I was referring to the shoppers of Walmart, not the employees :(

I think if someone has such a vendetta against their employer that they feel the need to "professionally rebel" by method of wrinkly shirts, I think they need a life hahaha.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Rightseatdriver wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:02 pm
ant_321 wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:44 pm
digits_ wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:32 pm

Or all those westjet pilots grooming the planes :twisted:
+1

You can't get more unprofessional looking than a pilot wearing blue latex gloves taking snotty tissues out of a seat back.
Absolutely correct. The other day I flew as a pax on an encore flight and by the time we had landed, taxied into the gate and waited to deplane, the co pilot already had his latex gloves on waiting to go to work. I honestly felt embarrassed for him. It's not a good look. Atleast wait till the plane deboards if you want to be that eager. You're a pilot, not a janitor.
If he doesn't drop to his knees to pick up gum wrappers, the Cookie Pusher will write him up as a "Bad Groomer." He (or She) will be immediately sent to Re-Programming for an intervenous injection of KoolAid.

Thank the pr#cks ahead of you that thought this kiss @ss manouver was a good plan!
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Re: Professionalism

Post by mixturerich »

flyzam wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:33 pm The airlines get what they pay for.
If you made this comment with the intention of starting a shitstorm, it’s definitely worked, and I applaude you. :lol:
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dogfood
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Re: Professionalism

Post by dogfood »

This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by AvifiskAlly »

dogfood wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
That is not at all logical. Why would any profession need uniforms? How about we all just wear jeans, how about police, military, Tim’s workers, bus drivers. It’s a uniform wear it with respect. If you didn’t want to wear a uniform why did you get into this end of the industry. Maybe you should be flying in the Bush.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by infiniteregulus »

dogfood wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
Or just be an actual bus driver. Sounds like you'd be happier
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Cat Driver »

Or just be an actual bus driver. Sounds like you'd be happier
Not to mention better off financially.

Far better working hours.

Far less bureaucratic B.S. to put up with.

And you can plan your home life and leisure time.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by confusedalot »

Not so sure about bus driving but certainly think twice about trucking. Did the research and it ain't a pretty place to be.

As far as busses are concerned, do you really want to deal 8 hours a day with a bunch of moron bmw drivers who should not even be allowed to drive a bike? Never mind the cranky and sometimes crazy passengers. No flight attendant or cockpit door to keep you separated.

All things considered, flying is not so bad. The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by C.W.E. »

What makes a job get boring or just plain unhappy is repetition.

Scheduled airline and ab-initio flight training fall into this category in my opinion and I got out of both as soon as possible.

There are a few flying jobs that are interesting that pay good money.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by complexintentions »

Hahahah! So many unhappy, angry, self-loathing people around. Blaming everyone else but themselves for their shitty lives.

I do believe I have always included in my remarks the words: do or think whatever you want. Just don't act surprised at the outcome. :mrgreen:
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Re: Professionalism

Post by confusedalot »

Respectfully disagree.

Hard work, good planning, ability, and all of that sort of stuff are clearly good attributes to a successful life.

Having said that, I think it is Bill Gates that stated, before a university graduate audience, that asserted, among other things, that life is not fair, and that anyone who does not acknowledge that luck plays a factor in success, is a liar.

Just so happen to be the offspring of a successful son of an immigrant tailor with a grade six education who was successful enough to start his own business and live in a part of town that I could never even dream of as a pilot.

He lived through WW2 and therefore could not get an education, schools were completely destroyed. And, even this sort of person, clearly states that luck was an important factor in his life. But he did get admission into canada, where he could do something. That was luck and timing.

Something to think about. Timing in life, as in, what circumstances you were born in, what opportunities that may or may not be present at that particular time and place, have a huge impact on your personal future.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by HansDietrich »

complexintentions wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:52 pm Hahahah! So many unhappy, angry, self-loathing people around. Blaming everyone else but themselves for their shitty lives.

I do believe I have always included in my remarks the words: do or think whatever you want. Just don't act surprised at the outcome. :mrgreen:
Right, except that the OUTCOME is not (only) the result of YOUR own choices. More often then not, factors completely out of your control affect your life. If you haven't learned that by now, then you're one lucky individual; that you are in complete control of every aspect of your life.

There is also something to be said about how you view life in general. You could be one of the lucky few that sees the positives in everything, while others don't have such a sunny outlook on life. The best advice I heard growing up in the old country: "Son, you gotta learn to live with disappointment". I haven't (learned)...
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