WJ Scab List

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atphat
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by atphat »

telex wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:34 am Westnet.

Names are there.

Do it.
That is a very very bad idea.
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altiplano
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by altiplano »

The thing that a lot of people seem to either miss or be willing to overlook is that swoop isn't an 'uber' or 'amazon' or 'westjet'...

Those were new companies that came along and competed with or disrupted the status quo, swoop is an existing company - westjet - attempting to whipsaw and diminish and marginalise it's current staff.
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PNC
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by PNC »

So thats a reason to publish names? Because YOU feel your in the right?
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telex
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by telex »

So you support the scabs?

Does that make you a scab?
atphat wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:38 am
telex wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:34 am Westnet.

Names are there.

Do it.
That is a very very bad idea.
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mbav8r
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by mbav8r »

What’s the matter PNC, you on that list?
Can’t do the time, don’t do the crime! Some places will publish the names of “Johns” when they get picked up for soliciting a prostitute. In this case the names of the w*^re$ are being published:)
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telex
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by telex »

You have three posts. Make your fourth an epic one. Make a difference.

Need the names?

PM me.
PNC wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:38 am So thats a reason to publish names? Because YOU feel your in the right?
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digits_
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by digits_ »

What they are doing is either legal, or it isn't.

If it is, you have no business whatsoever to try to publicly shame people for doing something you don't agree with.
If it is illegal, you can let the authorities deal with it, or sue them yourself if you feel that strongly about it and see what happens.

A lot of laws are in place with the purpose to protect the minorities when the majority feels like they can do anything they want because it's "democratic".
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tbaylx
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by tbaylx »

telex wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:48 am You have three posts. Make your fourth an epic one. Make a difference.

Need the names?

PM me.
PNC wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:38 am So thats a reason to publish names? Because YOU feel your in the right?
You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list. :roll:
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FL410AV8R
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by FL410AV8R »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:32 pm
You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list. :roll:
I would argue with you that actually the opposite is true, it is WestJet that is displaying amateurish and irresponsible behaviour towards what was once the most rabidly loyal pilot group in the country if not on the planet. It takes real effort and irresponsibility to screw this up as badly as they have and continuing stupidity and arrogance not to make real attempts to repair the relationship. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You seem to be getting incorrect and or incomplete information from somewhere. There have been NO negotiations regarding Swoop between WJ and ALPA. There have been a number of take it or leave it offers from WJ (including one of Final Offer Selection arbitration) but with so many strings attached you could have knitted an Afgan.

I am fully behind the direction our MEC and negotiators have taken. Swoop will be dealt with via scope and those who thought they could play the system to their own advantage may very well be unpleasantly surprised. Any WJ pilot I have spoken to is of the same mind when it comes to this attempted end run by both WJ and opportunistic assh@les. Some of the names I have seen are real industry gems with reputations for screwing over fellow pilots.
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groundpilot
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by groundpilot »

I don't even know why you guys waste your time engaging with "tbaylx"

He obviously has never flown for an airline and has zero understanding of scope. Its like trying to teach a grade 7 student calculus. He just isn't ready.
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atphat
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by atphat »

telex wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 am So you support the scabs?

Does that make you a scab?
atphat wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:38 am
telex wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:34 am Westnet.

Names are there.

Do it.
That is a very very bad idea.
No I do not support them. It would be a shame for a current WJ pilot to lose their job by posting names publicly. Don’t think for a second the company wouldn’t be able to find out who you are if they really wanted to.
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Last edited by atphat on Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
atphat
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by atphat »

Double
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Demeter
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by Demeter »

Smooth move TL. Nuf said as itsprob at the lawyers already :shock:
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J Roc
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by J Roc »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:32 pm
You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list. :roll:
While I'm opposed to public shaming, and I will not take part in the advancement of any "scab list", I have to call you out on your position here.

You're foolish to think that this is over or that our MEC negotiated a " 100% or nothing" position. tbaylx, for a guy that claims to have 25 years in the business with union and negotiating background, you certainly seem a lack an understanding of how this could play out. You really seem to be caught up in the external optics and online rhetoric, but truth be told, things are probably advancing much differently than we're being led to believe. This is FAR from over...

My advice to any external pilot looking to hitch their wagon to swoop - have a back up plan! Everything you're witnessing right now - OTS hires, foreign trainers, company and union posturing etc - is all part of negotiations. Anyone with a lick of union experience will tell you that negotiations NEVER end, even after the CBA.

Also, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop. Those that are in the know will tell you that our ULP complaints were NEVER about our MEC keeping WJ pilots out of swoop tails but rather a strategic maneuver by our union to force management to negotiate. Will we, the pilots of WJ, take few concessions while negotiating swoop flying? Probably, but we'll win a few things as well and our first CBA will be something that every WJ pilot will be proud of. Anyone with a lick of union experience will also tell you - a good CBA is one where both sides feel like they've lost something.

So, you're sadly mistaken if you think this over, or that WJ will keep 14 OTS hires around when they can gain a few concessions from 1500 pilots instead! Trust me, this is FAR from over...

Personally, while I would hate to see 14 pilots let go (probably with some sort of severance), we do have pilots at WJ who believe, when the dust settles, that an FO spot on the Q is too good for these "scabs". So, I'll say it again - have a back up plan.

However, I'm sure you'll be fine with this - you seem to advocate for an "every man for themselves" approach.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

J RO
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pigboat
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by pigboat »

digits_ wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:17 pm What they are doing is either legal, or it isn't.

If it is, you have no business whatsoever to try to publicly shame people for doing something you don't agree with.
If it is illegal, you can let the authorities deal with it, or sue them yourself if you feel that strongly about it and see what happens.

A lot of laws are in place with the purpose to protect the minorities when the majority feels like they can do anything they want because it's "democratic".
Nothing illegal going on in letting everyone know the names. Take pride in YOUR new position! We want to know those individuals that take those jobs. It is just important to not make PUBLIC negative statements about those taking those positions!!!! No need for that. The list of names is all we really need to see.

I would love to have a list of those taking those positions while Westjet pilots are trying to resolve their first Contract!!!! Thirty nine years a Union man.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by WeedPro2000 »

J Roc wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:27 pmAlso, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop.
That's quite the wish sandwhich you just made yourself. I'm curious what you think a negative ruling brings.

Remember, Swoop was never about draining jobs from mainline. The business plan for WJ is clearly directed towards increasing the value added product in order to attract business travellers. CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years. Swoop, on the other hand, is quite clearly directed at staving off bottom feeding competition from crawling up our backsides and is totally focused on cost cost cost. There is NO ANTI-UNION ANIMUS in the Swoop concept, although the lack of access to the Swoop FD will by needs mean lost career and pay improvement opportunities (self inflicted). There is not going to be a favourable (to ALPA) ULP ruling, in spite of all of the Murray Hill Limousine test factors being present regarding common employer, there will be no labour relations purpose gained by the CIRB issuing a common employer finding.

ALPA's number one job should have been to immediately start negotiating over Swoop jobs last summer. They didn't, and now we have desperation moves happening like innocuous hiring bans that shoot blanks, and the OP here posting of scab lists.

Any concessions made now to put WJ pilots into Swoop flight decks are sure to make for interesting commentary.
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Bede
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by Bede »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:27 am CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years.
Talking about CK last memo, I'm curious on your thoughts of him identifying AC as our primary competitor, yet the memo before that saying, referencing our pay structure, claiming that AT & Sunwing are our primary competitors.

John, at what point does the doublespeak (many more examples available at your request) finally make you realize that WJ management has no interest in ensuring that you earn a wage similar to your peers doing identical work? Surely you must have a breaking point somewhere...
WeedPro2000 wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:27 am ALPA's number one job should have been to immediately start negotiating over Swoop jobs last summer. They didn't, and now we have desperation moves happening like innocuous hiring bans that shoot blanks, and the OP here posting of scab lists.
Actually they did. Except that the company lawyers insisted that as a precondition for negotiating for Swoop, ALPA would forever waive the right to labour action or filing any sort of ULP complaint.
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Bede
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by Bede »

While emotions are running as high as they've ever been, it's imperative that we remain professional if we want to win this fight. Publicly shaming pilots is not a behaviour that will advance our cause*. Let's let the company be the ones to make the dumb emotionally charged mistakes that has resulted in unifying the pilot group and their losses before the CIRB.

We have a fantastic MEC with the resources of the world's largest pilot union at their disposal. So far, we are undefeated before the CIRB. This track record will continue as long as we stay professional, rational and united.

Having said that, we can't stop until there is one list and an open bid for all Swoop positions. Those guys can get in line behind the Encore pilots who deserve these positions.

*Note: the company could argue that this constitutes harassment and fire you. You'd probably get your job back eventually but management is in the hostage taking business right now to gain negotiating capital.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by WeedPro2000 »

I’ll run the risk of divulging corporate info by providing the sketch of what the company is trying to do with WJ. Read this and then tell me where the overlap with the Swoop market space is.
...In essence, I compare what we’re doing to starting a new airline – based on the investment we’re making to go after this significant growth opportunity. To give premium guests what they expect from premium travel (table stakes from their perspective), we are investing in:

•A hub strategy to provide business guests with the #1 thing they value – a strong network with connectivity and schedule frequency / options;

•WestJet-owned and operated guest lounges (domestic, transborder and international lounges) in YYZ, YYC and YVR;

•A world-class B787 Dreamliner interior, including business class with lie-flat seats, and service to match;

•737 Aircraft configuration changes (details to be shared when the time is right);

•Onboard premium food and beverage service;

•A planned transborder joint venture with Delta Airlines to make it possible to profitably serve new transborder business destinations;

•Digital enhancements to provide our guests with innovative and seamless travel experiences; and

•Significant updates to our Rewards program to entice premium guest loyalty...
Pilots may not like that the Swoop pilots are being paid less than mainline pilots, but that fact is not definitive proof of a plot to undermine WJ mainline pilot negotiations or the union. If ALPA wishes to grant concessions to get those jobs, well that is its choice to do so. I hope they don’t touch the $400,000 I’m planning to earn this year by flying a 737 to do so, but Viva la Revoluccion!

Comrade 4799
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Re: WJ Scab List

Post by Legacy »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:27 am
J Roc wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:27 pmAlso, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop.

Remember, Swoop was never about draining jobs from mainline. The business plan for WJ is clearly directed towards increasing the value added product in order to attract business travellers. CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years. Swoop, on the other hand, is quite clearly directed at staving off bottom feeding competition from crawling up our backsides and is totally focused on cost cost cost.
Yeah and that's why they announced the strong possibility of Swoop having 40 planes. Just to stave off the other guys that don't even have 5 planes. Makes complete sense.
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