Bargaining idea

[avpride]

mb,

The industry has evolved from a local dog and pony show to a global market. We've also seen many folk priced right out of joining us as fuel and insurance and mx costs skyrocket and global wages tank. Do you know why TC stopped releasing the numbers on CPL's and ATPL"S issued? Because the numbers were declining rapidly and industry experts in the employ of our airlines forced their hand. Its all about keeping the workforce costs down so the BOD and CEO bonuses can stay high.

As for the pay.. I'm glad you eat up what the LEC and MEC keep feeding you. I ran those numbers. Farcical at best. Why do I make HALF of what most of the other YVR classic captains make for doing the SAME job!? Thats outrageous. 25% maybe..

All the BS that was handed to you during the last negotiations has been proven to be just that. BS. There is no fleet reduction. We actually kept tails by adding Q's and 900's. They're also extending the service life of the 300s. We also haven't shrunk the pilot numbers. Still holding strong at over 1500. GGN can barely keep up. I can't count how many times I've been handed OT to go do their 1900 flying and hear about the jet guys covering theirs as well. I see CMA planes parked because of lack of crews. Sure a GIANT market down fall may change this a bit.. but it would have to collapse the global economy, not just our local one to slow the uptake.

Your numbers for the majority being A scale are skewed. The picture is easily painted by a look at some actual lists. A quick look at last months seniority list(march 2018) shows this.. 805 A scale of 1583 and 777 B scale. 49% are B scalers. And they're hiring at least 12-16 every month now. Sure that may be to replace guys on the whatever the hell you call the current air canada movement show.. but there are still a few dozen PML1.0 folk here and as you said a couple hundred retirements every year. We will out number the A-scalers in about a month or two. We're also considerably more mobilized, connected and much more vocal. Probably why the MEC and LEC's are starting to listen to us.. also why they just re-elected themselves. Solidifying their $positions$ for another couple years before they're punted.

Then why is your operational performance in a tailspin? Jazz came 3rd in controllable OTP and 2nd in controllable completions to GGN in 2017 ---- Yes GGN has been outperforming Jazz for almost 15 straight months now. Is Jazz really competitive anymore?

[mbav8r]

Hi Rowdy,
I will run the numbers again but suffice to say I don’t take anything fed to me a face value, I’m very analytical by nature so I need my own data. I did ask the hard questions during the road show and the answers were exactly as advertised, eg; I asked if they(management) were worried we wouldn’t be able to attract pilots at those wages? Answer, “we’ll know in 6 months if we went too far” I’ve said this many times and pretty sure to you but I digress, the answer to your question as to why you make less than half the Classic Captains in YVR is two fold. First, they are higher up on the pay scale YOS, second you came to Jazz on the new contract. Did anyone, anyone at all hold a gun to your head and force you to take the job?
Regarding seniority list numbers, that 1500 includes all pilots including those on leave, STD, LTD and management pilots, the baseline is less than 1200 active pilots after the 122 predicted PML attrition are gone by September, most of them will be post 2015. Of the 832 pre 2015 pilots maybe 50 will be gone at the end of 2018, so 780 of 1179 required Pilots is exactly 2/3. 1179 is the number of active pilots needed for the flying. After 2018, the attrition off the list of pre 2015 will be limited to retirements alone, about 30 per year.
The fleet used to be 133 aircraft at over 900 flights per day, how many today? 111 with around 680 flights per day, reducing to 101 aircraft when the 10 remaining RJs leave and a significant reduction to the MADUG in a little over a year and a half, how many pilots will we need then?
The bottom of the list will keep recycling not grow, that being said you should have a voice and we absolutely need to fix the bottom end of the contract, especially since there is an actual shortage of pilots which was not a factor until long after the ink dried. However, you and others are proposing yet another sacrifice from the senior guys all because YOU chose to come here, that’s not happening. It’s all or nothing now, I won’t vote for another frozen pay for senior guys to fix a problem that should be the companies, No pilots!

[digits_]

Did anyone, anyone at all hold a gun to your head and force you to take the job?

That's an argument that isn't as fair as you'd think. Pilots who want an airline career in Canada don't have that many choices. There is a big chance that you have to flow through Jazz if you want to make it to the airlines.

The senior guys/union at one point basically said: "well, I made good money getting here to the top of the list, now I want to take those opportunities away from the people who will get hired after me, so I can make even more". Basically take away the steps that got you to your ivory tower in which you can now yell at the new pilots complaining about said wages. But hey, it's been democratically decided, so it's fair. Ok.

Fast forward to the situation that the OP is talking about. In a few years the B scale people will be in the majority. What if they were to decide to get a pay cut for the senior guys to improve the situation for the junior guys. After all, that would be democratically decided as well. Oh, no, can't do that. People in the ivory tower start calling foul. You should be grateful, you'll be a captain much quicker, and we didn't screw you over THAT hard, so this isn't fair. We took away your bread 10 years ago but have been giving you crumbs back in the last few years! And who put a gun to your head to take the wages if you don't like them? Ok.

So who is putting a gun to your head to stay if the new senior wages aren't enough for you?

[mbav8r]

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.

[momnosam7]

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.

Sounds like you are just crying about bad career choices you made. Thinking Jazz was going to remain a career place. Sorry BUD industry changed, you all need to adapt and make your regional more attractive to younger pilots who want to move.

[mbav8r]

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
[/quote

Sounds like you are just crying about bad career choices you made. Thinking Jazz was going to remain a career place. Sorry BUD industry changed, you all need to adapt and make your regional more attractive to younger pilots who want to move.

Sounds like you have a reading and comprehension problem

[av8ts]

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.

+1

[Inverted2]

It's just millennials blowing off steam. I flew with a college kid complaining about the pay recently. I asked him what his previous job paid and he said it was his first job he ever had. Its all about the entitlement with the younger ones now. I just laugh it off.

[mbav8r]

So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.

[digits_]

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.

Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"

What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.

2) You should look up the definition of entitlement and apply it to your post. You might come to a remarkable conclusion.

3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.

4) Loosely translated "You guys have to suffer because I suffered" is not a very proactive attitude in conflicts.

5) You've had your layoffs and I'm sure you have suffered. Our bad times are undoubtedly still ahead. Nothing wrong with trying to save up as much as we can in advance.

6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.

7) Having your wage adjusted/increased for cost of living, is a pay raise. It is not an automatically applied concept. A lot of people and pilots do not get this. And wages for people on the B scale went down in absolute numbers. It is also normal that after a certain point their are no more pay increased. Your value to the company does not go up signifcantly after 28 vs 29 years of experience. It does greatly in crease in the first few years however.

[montado]

So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.

Please run the numbers for us with what someone on the new contract would make vs you doing the SAME job. Why you think it’s fair to compare being an FO to a Captain is beyond me. I can show you pay scales to where doctors made more than janitors, does that have any bearing on whether their pay was fair or industry standard? Everyone wants to avoid this, becuase on paper, salaries are down, the airline is paying less, yet somehow you think we are so stupid to think we have it better today, being paid less for the same seat.

Let’s go cut all the tim horotons workers hourly wages in half, tell them how good they have it because we will make them manager in a year and after 5 years they actually make more money this way.

[mbav8r]

Digits_ wrote
Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"

No, I said you were entitled because you want me to take a pay freeze, to ease your pain as you pass through Jazz to get to AC

What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.

If you’d been around longer than a month you’d know that up until a couple years ago they were the lowest paid Regional pilots in the world(at least NA)

2) You should look up the definition of entitlement and apply it to your post. You might come to a remarkable conclusion.

Not worth a response

3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.

Yes, that would be true if I physically took it from you, you never had it in the first place, you chose to accept the 60 dollars.

4) Loosely translated "You guys have to suffer because I suffered" is not a very proactive attitude in conflicts.

Nope, I’ve clearly stated the low pay needs to be fixed, you want me to suffer to make that happen. See above where you chose to accept the 60 dollars.

5) You've had your layoffs and I'm sure you have suffered. Our bad times are undoubtedly still ahead. Nothing wrong with trying to save up as much as we can in advance.

I wouldn’t wish layoffs and starting over on anybody, well maybe those swoop bastards. Hopefully good times ahead and since guys keep applying to Jazz, management has had no reason to fix it, maybe when we actually don’t have any applicants that will change.

6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.

Yes it sucks, we didn’t invent this, the industry is full of examples of this happening, you seem to be ignoring the simple fact, without this new payscale you would be somewhere else complaining about the pay.

7) Having your wage adjusted/increased for cost of living, is a pay raise. It is not an automatically applied concept. A lot of people and pilots do not get this. And wages for people on the B scale went down in absolute numbers. It is also normal that after a certain point their are no more pay increased. Your value to the company does not go up signifcantly after 28 vs 29 years of experience. It does greatly in crease in the first few years however.

A 2% raise is nice however does not always cover cost of living increases, in fact I would argue it never does. Inflation according to our government is targeted at 2%, they don’t factor in volatile items like fuel or another example house insurance. My house insurance has gone up 14-17% annually for the last several years, property tax goes up 5% etc....
Your value as a pilot is no different year 1 or year 5, they don’t value your experience. Unless you’re talking about when you get an ATPL, in which case I think you should have it when you arrive in the first place, coincidentally that’s why the regionals in the US are paying better theses days. To put it in perspective for you, I started at Jazz with several thousand hours mostly PIC, some management positions and a short while later the first of the college grads started, they were paid the exact same wage as me, clearly no value put on my experience.

You want a job at AC and that’s fine but I’m not going to subsidize your trip, if you don’t get there, go see my numbers in the post above, I’m not going to lose any sleep knowing you will make significantly more than I did overall, don’t forget to save for that rainy day.

[mbav8r]

So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.

Please run the numbers for us with what someone on the new contract would make vs you doing the SAME job. Why you think it’s fair to compare being an FO to a Captain is beyond me. I can show you pay scales to where doctors made more than janitors, does that have any bearing on whether their pay was fair or industry standard? Everyone wants to avoid this, becuase on paper, salaries are down, the airline is paying less, yet somehow you think we are so stupid to think we have it better today, being paid less for the same seat.

Let’s go cut all the tim horotons workers hourly wages in half, tell them how good they have it because we will make them manager in a year and after 5 years they actually make more money this way.

It’s not the same job, get this through your thick head, we could not get the left seat, why would I compare something that was not possible. Are there a few pilots who were hired just before the contract, yes I suppose there are some who were upgraded much quicker than the average, timing is everything.
I am offended though, you chose to accept the conditions ahead of joining and now you want me to make another sacrifice to ease your pain, how about people own their choices and live with the consequences or go where they might feel more valued.
I can’t be more clear about this, I will not ever take a paycut to improve your situation unless I’m forced to, looks like you’ll have to wade it out for awhile though, numbers not on your side yet

[montado]

You are offended that your colleagues want the same payscale as you? Huh this will be a new concept to wrap my thick head around. You know you are not the rule, plenty of jazz pilots reaching 60 here shortly spent less than a year of their careers right seat. We are all sorry you had to spend years in the right seat making a living wage.

I have the ability to step back and see all perspectives, and I can see where everyone is getting their charge. Boils down like it’s been said, Jazz won’t be a career company, pilots will come and go like bearskin and perimeter. That’s the contract voted in, voted in to create division and pretty much flip Jazz into a pancake house.

[digits_]

I can’t be more clear about this, I will not ever take a paycut to improve your situation unless I’m forced to, looks like you’ll have to wade it out for awhile though, numbers not on your side yet

Just like the new hires did. They didn't have a choice either. Well, they had the choice not to take the job. Just like you would have the choice to change jobs if you don't like the new (hypothetical) contract. Both those "choices", aren't really viable alternatives though, aren't they?

Digits_ wrote
Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"

No, I said you were entitled because you want me to take a pay freeze, to ease your pain as you pass through Jazz to get to AC

What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.

If you’d been around longer than a month you’d know that up until a couple years ago they were the lowest paid Regional pilots in the world(at least NA)

But we are having this conversation now. Not a few years ago. I am honestly curious, what would be an acceptable -to "your" generation- attitude towards this whole regional/jazz debacle for a fresh ATPL holder?

3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.

Yes, that would be true if I physically took it from you, you never had it in the first place, you chose to accept the 60 dollars.

The exact same can be said over reducing your future wages. We didn't take anything, you never had it in the first place. That doesn't make it fair or acceptable either.

6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.

Yes it sucks, we didn’t invent this, the industry is full of examples of this happening, you seem to be ignoring the simple fact, without this new payscale you would be somewhere else complaining about the pay.

Okay. So you agree it sucks. You might not have invented it, but you did implement it. Unions can't do stuff like this and then expect people on both payscales to join forces and act in unison.

Honestly, what did you think would happen eventually when a system like this gets implemented?

Your value as a pilot is no different year 1 or year 5, they don’t value your experience.

Of course your value increases. Your value is pretty much directly related to your salary in an employee-employer relationship. Why not pay everyone the same then? Because experienced type rating holding pilots would get snatched by other airlines. If you want to reflect that economic reality, pay should go up more significantly in the first 5 years of the pay scale, than in the highest 5 years of the scale, but that's a completely different discussion

[Air.Field]

wow.... I'm at a loss of words of the attitudes here. Instead of a long winded post reiterating most of what mbav8r said, I'll just say this. If you want equal pay for equal work, why not complain to AC and ACPA for same pay they are getting. You are flying their passengers with AC painted on the side. The money is essentially coming from AC. Go hassel them and tell them how you feel betrayed and deserving.

[PositiveRate27]

This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR

[momnosam7]

This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR

It's an industry issue that Jazz and all other companies in Canada are caught in. It is not driven by management it is driven by the consumer. The consumer doesn't care who they are flying on any more than you care if you bought your new TV from Best Buy or Amazon. No different than a family of 4 taking that yearly vacation on WOW instead of WJ hench the real need for Swoop. Although there are some points to be made about supply and demand the job of being a pilot is changing. It will always be a highly respected job and a great profession but the function they are fulfilling is becoming a commodity. You dont care where your electricity is coming from and consumers don't care what airline they are on or who is driving. Off-shoring of pilots in Canada by foreign carriers is just yet another reminder that piloting is a global career which can be good but also bad as Canadian pilots are still in the top percentile of what is called "totality of quality, equity and opportunity" meaning that wages may be slightly lower but given the other benefits of working in Canada (Medical, education, opportunity, human rights protections, etc) Canada competes well on the global demand for pilots. The next logical step for companies is not to raise wages (when they are already tops in TQEO), it is to pressure the gov for foreign pilots AND that my friends is where the real fight begins. This petty A scale B scale stuff is simply crumbs. The industry is becoming commoditized the profession is becoming commoditized and things are changing just as they have in countless other industries. Swoop is essential, B scale at Jazz is essential and it being driven by the consumer. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz instead of Sky because the pilots are paid more. Aint gonna happen. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz because they are better than GGN. Aint gonna happen. Tell a pax to fly WJ instead of Wow because the bad company is fighting with its pilots, aint gonna happen. Bottom line is not enough of us shopped at Sears because we were driven by price and so are the people that fill our airplanes. An airline is providing a commoditized service for the first time in our young industry thanks to globalization and - guess what - thats a good thing for consumers.

[AvifiskAlly]

This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR

It's an industry issue that Jazz and all other companies in Canada are caught in. It is not driven by management it is driven by the consumer. The consumer doesn't care who they are flying on any more than you care if you bought your new TV from Best Buy or Amazon. No different than a family of 4 taking that yearly vacation on WOW instead of WJ hench the real need for Swoop. Although there are some points to be made about supply and demand the job of being a pilot is changing. It will always be a highly respected job and a great profession but the function they are fulfilling is becoming a commodity. You dont care where your electricity is coming from and consumers don't care what airline they are on or who is driving. Off-shoring of pilots in Canada by foreign carriers is just yet another reminder that piloting is a global career which can be good but also bad as Canadian pilots are still in the top percentile of what is called "totality of quality, equity and opportunity" meaning that wages may be slightly lower but given the other benefits of working in Canada (Medical, education, opportunity, human rights protections, etc) Canada competes well on the global demand for pilots. The next logical step for companies is not to raise wages (when they are already tops in TQEO), it is to pressure the gov for foreign pilots AND that my friends is where the real fight begins. This petty A scale B scale stuff is simply crumbs. The industry is becoming commoditized the profession is becoming commoditized and things are changing just as they have in countless other industries. Swoop is essential, B scale at Jazz is essential and it being driven by the consumer. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz instead of Sky because the pilots are paid more. Aint gonna happen. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz because they are better than GGN. Aint gonna happen. Tell a pax to fly WJ instead of Wow because the bad company is fighting with its pilots, aint gonna happen. Bottom line is not enough of us shopped at Sears because we were driven by price and so are the people that fill our airplanes. An airline is providing a commoditized service for the first time in our young industry thanks to globalization and - guess what - thats a good thing for consumers.

Agree with some of that. It is a changing field due to globalization and yes on balance Canada is pretty good, some folks love to point to the US but dont factor in the medical system, pvt school for kids, cost of college and in general just having to be in the US compared to Canada. The issue at Jazz is that the B scale was and is necessary to compete and remain relevant.

[digits_]

The issue at Jazz is that the B scale was and is necessary to compete and remain relevant.

Why? I don't get it.

Without paying too much attention to the exact numbers. Let's say for whatever reason the pilot group needs to take a 10% pay cut to stay competitive. Why does that result in the junior guys taking a 25% paycut and the senior guys 2% raise? Why not all take a 10% paycut? Or an absolute number instead of the percentages.

Why do you need a separate pay scale?