Bargaining idea

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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r »

This was my viewpoint at the time, there was no guarantee attached to the contract other than a 5 year extension to a reduced CPA. We were being reduced regardless, that was made clear, we were operating above the minimum guaranteed by the CPA and if we did not play ball, the flying would’ve been reduced to the minimum.
So, let’s say we take a 10% haircut across the board, spread the pain around without any guarantee or protection of the current flying. As pilots move over to AC on the PML, there was nothing preventing AC from reducing our flying and shifting it to SR or GGN.
The other option, nobody currently at Jazz affected, call it a grandfather clause. Then the next step, are pilots willing to join for the new package, apparently yes. This was supposed to make us competitive for any new work that came up, how’d that work out for us. Since we signed, SR grew by 10 175s and GGN does all the RJ work we used to do out of YYZ. Can you see why we chose the protect our current conditions.
Not that this will matter but I had a look at my wages when I joined Jazz, keeping in mind the buying power would be reduced today, anyhow the current starting wage is about 4000.00 more per year than mine was. The biggest improvement for the 2010 contract was to the first 3 years, obviously it was too much because it’s now the 4-6 years pay.
The other factor, Jazz spends about 50,000 on your initial training and if you’re only here for a year or two, the low wages offsets that cost a little, kinda like a bond but not really because you could leave right after your line indoc at no cost to you.
Are you not happy making over 200g more than I did in the first 10 years?
Proposing the senior guys freeze their pay so you can make a little more on your way to AC is not going to win you any friends, if your staying at Jazz, take the left seat as soon as you can and you’ll be making far more than a slight raise as an FO.
There will come a point the movement slows significantly and hopefully pilots will vote with their feet but history being what it is I don’t think that’ll happen.
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart »

Hello again, glad to see my crazy idea had a lot of echo, some bad and some good. I'll try to forget all the personal attack witch I was expecting anyway since it's a normal defence mechanism when you feel your loosing control.

First of all let me reassure some of you and try to aim the discussion back on the right way. I will NOT support this idea. :shock: Yes thats right because that idea is what management is drooling right now over us. Divide and conquer as usual. That's the only reason why Jazz is stuck in such a bad deal.

First of all lets correct some fact:

Jazz and AC gave a 1 times payement of 10 millions $ to a small group of pilot so they could vote against them. Don't believe me, look at the financial report from Jazz. https://chorusaviation.ca/financial-statements The information is all here and free to the public. Now how many of those pilots do you think are still at Jazz not on purpose but because they got denied by AC. So even those who wanted to stay and like their life at Jazz were force into this agreement. Like someone said A scale are now looking at almost a 15 years wage freeze even if industry is booming. :shock: Talk about Poutine trick on Trump administration it's amazing what trick Jazz management did on our group and ALPA didn't help in anyway.

According to a statement from management on the Q4 2017 result: "Transitioned a significant portion of the workforce to new industry competitive wage scales; currently 52% of Jazz pilots are operating under the new collective agreement." :shock:
So management are clearly well aware of our division and could still play trick on us.

Don't fall also for the mathematic limbo thrown at us by management and forwarded by ALPA on the overall pay is better since the upgrade are quicker. Wage are paid hourly and have always been. Time to upgrade is not a negotiable asset just like per diem are not a wage. Yes does who are lucky to upgrade quick will come on top on short period of time but remember B scale take 3 more years also to reach top scale. So long therm they will loose again. And what will you say to those who won't get an upgrade because the music is slowing already. What about those hired in Dec. 2015 and upgrade within 2 years on A scale, they are now the best paid pilot at regional level according to the same Math limbo. Are you mad at them too because they were lucky to upgrade sooner? Yes timing stand for a lot in aviation but should not stand for a reason to lower hourly wage.

Scared of loosing flying to other regional provider (Sky, GRG, EVAS) so you would accept anything to keep your job. Guess what, look at the AC quarterly statement. It's going to happen anyway. Jazz is looking to do more leasing flying then contract flying and AC wants the regional flyer to be equal partner. As of now Jazz is still the biggest partner and with the leasing business they will do with AC they will still stay that way, but we won't be the major contract flyer anymore so stop signing reduction or wage freeze your just gifting shareholders and you won't change the plan they put in long time ago. :wink:

Now for the B scale wage. Yes the entry wage is very low, but until mainline raise there own entry level it will stay like this and unfortunately thanks to other carrier it's also the Canadian industry entry wage. So not much to do. But the biggest problem with B scale is the fact that in Canada now at least at Jazz, EQUAL WORK doesn't mean EQUAL PAY anymore. AND THAT IS THE ISSUE!

This issue need to be address quickly before other do the same. ALPA and ALL the pilot have to stand strong just like our women did in the past to request the same wage then their male coworker. Let the words out that the winners of the top employer of the year is also proud to promote discrimination among it's employee based on a date of hire. And even thought it is legally accepted at the federal level, every province in Canada made these orphelin status illegal.

Finally be ready for the 2025 collective bargaining because they will play the same tricks again but hopefully you are more inform now. Like PR said: "Let’s remain in solidarity."

Sorry if I scared the hell out of some of you. :lol:
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r »

Mart wrote;
Jazz and AC gave a 1 times payement of 10 millions $ to a small group of pilot so they could vote against them. Don't believe me, look at the financial report from Jazz
Mart,
I’m not sure how to take you, for example this particular claim you made is completely false unless by small group of pilots you meant to say the entire group of pilots including those on leave of absence, STD and maternity/paternity leave. It was also considered a signing bonus which is normal business practice typically in lieu of retroactive pay when there is a gap between the last contract expiring and a new one implemented.
Don’t believe me(sarcasm)
WHEREAS on January 12, 2015 the Association and the Company entered into a Memorandum of Settlement amending, inter alia, Collective Agreement No. 2 (the “Memorandum of Settlement”) which includes a lump sum payment to eligible Pilots in the amount of ten million dollars ($10,000,000.00); and
1) “Eligible Pilot[s]” shall mean all active bargaining unit employees and all inactive bargaining unit employees on a leave of absence of 180 days or less or who have not passed the change of definition date on Long Term Disability, but in any event including Pilots on maternity or paternity leave for the duration of the leave.
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av8ts
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by av8ts »

With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
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FL-280
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by FL-280 »

av8ts wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid. Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
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montado
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado »

If in 1988 you made 20k a year that is the same as today's fo starting pay.

If in 1998 you made 26k a year this is the same as today's fo starting pay.

If in 2008 you made 32k a year this is the same as today's fo starting pay.

And most interesting, one hundred years ago 2400 bucks is the equivalent to today's fo starting pay.

Source https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/relat ... alculator/

If it's any wonder why your kids tell you they will never own a house, look no further than this calculator reflecting back on your salary. Mind you your generation was the leading edge of consume, and now we are reaching the depths of spending money on any and every gadget or subscription you can think of. It's a different world today with avocado toast and iPhones.
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r »

FL-280 wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm
av8ts wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid.Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
Thank you for displaying exactly what embodies the sense of entitlement people keep talking about!
10 years ago, you would of been scrubbing toilets and cleaning the boss’s car while waiting to load another freighter of pop and chips, living in buttfuck nowhere for a lot less than 38,000.
Can I point something out to you, YOU DIDNT HAVE TO TAKE THE JOB!!!!! And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
I’m willing to wager you will be turned down by AC, they will see you for what you are and unfortunately that means we’re stuck with you, good luck though
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Alcoholism
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Alcoholism »

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm
FL-280 wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm
av8ts wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid.Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
Thank you for displaying exactly what embodies the sense of entitlement people keep talking about!
10 years ago, you would of been scrubbing toilets and cleaning the boss’s car while waiting to load another freighter of pop and chips, living in buttfuck nowhere for a lot less than 38,000.
Can I point something out to you, YOU DIDNT HAVE TO TAKE THE JOB!!!!! And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
I’m willing to wager you will be turned down by AC, they will see you for what you are and unfortunately that means we’re stuck with you, good luck though
Wrong! He/she is exactly AC material
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ »

Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
prop2jet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by prop2jet »

digits_ wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 am Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
No.
All B scale are on a DC plan.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ »

prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:37 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 am Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
No.
All B scale are on a DC plan.
Ineresting.

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
So you/senior guys vote to make sure the junior guys will not get the good DB pension, and then you are angry those junior guys consider doing something about your DB pension? You sir, are a hypocrite.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
av8ts
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by av8ts »

Don’t forget to tell AC during your interview that you want to be on the DB plan, and if not then your going to try to take it away from those who have it.
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prop2jet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by prop2jet »

digits_ wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:43 am
prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:37 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 am Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
No.
All B scale are on a DC plan.
Ineresting.

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
So you/senior guys vote to make sure the junior guys will not get the good DB pension, and then you are angry those junior guys consider doing something about your DB pension? You sir, are a hypocrite.
Digits,
Perhaps you should educate yourself. No one gets DB plans anymore.

The system in place today has been set up as a revolving door. This is not a career company and I would say that if you asked any prospective new hire if they are applying to Jazz because they want to make a career here I would suggest that their sights are on AC.

The current CA has set the stage for Division within the ranks of the pilot group and has played well into Managements game plan.

The solution is not to ask those on the A scale to take the cuts but rather to eliminate the B scale. With respect to pensions, that will not change. DC is here to stay as it is everywhere else. All that can be done on that front is to ensure they are improved.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ »

prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:21 am
Perhaps you should educate yourself. No one gets DB plans anymore.
mbav8r seems to be afraid they are taking his away, which implies he is getting one?
If he doesn't, this part of the discussion is indeed a moot point.

prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:21 am The solution is not to ask those on the A scale to take the cuts but rather to eliminate the B scale. With respect to pensions, that will not change. DC is here to stay as it is everywhere else. All that can be done on that front is to ensure they are improved.
Oh absolutely. I only have an issue with 2 different payscales withing the same company. Of course it is better if the B would increase to the A scale so there is only one left. But if for whatever reason that is impossible, it would only be fair the A scale would take a slight pay cut to get everyone back on the same scale.

I don't advocate screwing one group over to pay another, I am against that. But I am not surpsied the old "screwed over" group brings this up as a possible alternative to get "even".
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Topoff
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Topoff »

I'm all for hearing ideas about how we can get a more livable wage for FOs between now and 2025. The FO position at Jazz is a good job, that's why I signed up for it, but the pay is embarrassing. A wage of $3100 a month to fly for an airline is not enough for the task and responsibility you are given. Regardless if its your first job or fifth or what someone else made at their first job whenever that was. And, expecting pilots to upgrade as soon as they can to make ends meet and expecting that everyone is going to do this is unrealistic. Like someone else already said, about 50% of us are going to be in the right seat, on the B scale for maybe a very long time. I like my base, I like my type and honestly I don't think Id be ready to move across the country on a different type in a different city, just to make some more money. (Even with +4000 hrs, +2000 multi pic 2 crew) Even with all of the great upgrade training I would get. Maybe a few years in the right seat will make me a better captain? :wink: I want to stay where I am and do the best job I can but i'd also like to be paid for the responsibility, experience, education that we all have. I have no intention in going to AC and another 7 years is going to be a long wait but I'll tough it out if I have to and we cant get something done in the meantime. Just looking at the scale, 7 years, 61.33/hr, 5100/month, $60,716/yr. :lol:
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FL-280
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by FL-280 »

mbav8r wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm
FL-280 wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm
av8ts wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid.Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
Thank you for displaying exactly what embodies the sense of entitlement people keep talking about!
10 years ago, you would of been scrubbing toilets and cleaning the boss’s car while waiting to load another freighter of pop and chips, living in buttfuck nowhere for a lot less than 38,000.
Can I point something out to you, YOU DIDNT HAVE TO TAKE THE JOB!!!!! And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
I’m willing to wager you will be turned down by AC, they will see you for what you are and unfortunately that means we’re stuck with you, good luck though

My attitude has changed now because I just realised I could be scrubbing toilets...

I’m willing to wager you’re Air Ontario and have been living miserable since the Piché clause when AC was never going to happen.
You’re right; wont be going to AC; family time is worth much more than years of junior lifestyle at mainline with all the hiring they have been doing. Music is about to stop boys; just turn on CNN.....

SO, yes you are stuck with me and I really hope you’re around after 2025 so my / our vote just pisses the hell out of you.
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prop2jet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by prop2jet »

It has been said over and over again. All those who signed up to work at Jazz on the current CA (Post 2015) knew exactly what they signed up for.

When this CA was introduced to the membership all the focus of discussion was on the PML. The negotiating committee/MEC presented this as a crisis situation. The Company needed to have a decision and it was tied to the PML. Interestingly enough, after the PML subscription was closed it was opened up for more to join in however you could not opt out. As I recall there seemed to be more focus on discussing the PML than changes to the body of the CA, the repercussions of creating a B scale etc. Hard to argue the point when the competition to your work is paying poverty wages as well.

We are here today with a potential real mess in the making - loss of unity among the pilot group. Go to an LEC meeting today and you will here all the stats that demonstrate that after essentially a 3 year period a B scale pilot is close to being on the same financial track as an A scale pilot who spent 8 years as an FO. All contingent on getting that upgrade and seeing movement. Those upgrades are slowing down...
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart »

prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:39 am It has been said over and over again. All those who signed up to work at Jazz on the current CA (Post 2015) knew exactly what they signed up for.
(...)
Bold and untrue statement. New 2015 CA was ratify somewhere in January or February. And Effective July 1st july 2015. But Jazz held GS in March the same year. So I'm pretty sure those in the March to July GS didn't have the final wording in hand when they sign up. Also PMA wording was completed 2 years later or so. So for those who signup to Jazz at AC request for the AC mobility didn't have the detail of the mobility agreement when they sign in. So yes I would tend to agree they have the right to be mad today.

But again we are heading the wrong direction. The problem is all about equal work equal pay that is the basic of our workforce in Canada and should remain. Jazz open the path to discrimination in our rank and thats is totally unacceptable. ALPA and Jazz where proud to go in the media saying they sign a record 10 years CA with competitive wage but they never mention they would discriminate a full generation of pilots.

I don't care about how you had it hard in the past and you think because of that everyone else should go trough the same hard path, my grandfather died mining without adequate protective equipment will I ask the new generation of miner to do the same? Some of your logic seems to go that way. :roll:

I don't care that you have DB pension plan, good for you you were able to cash out on this when economic was going through the roof. But now that you you know these plan are long gone and never to come back, you should show a bit more respect for those you will still be working towards their 70 to fill in your pension IF it tanked.

I don't care about the 37K first year pay, like it was said before, unfortunately it is the standard wage in Canada for regional aviation. And also like someone said before you knew the wage when you sign up. I was able to provide for my kids and have a house with far lower wage when I started my career, so seeing today kids living with their parents, but having iPhone, iPad, iCar, iTravel, iName It, I cannot agree with their complaints. At the end of the day it's all about choice. Average Canadian wage is 37 700$/years. So I think out of school pilots who complain on entry level pay should look around a bit.

And for those of you who still continue to dream about a theory that if nobody sign up, the wage would increase. You are badly educate on how the system works. Again, there is far less job available then their is human able to work on the planet, that is a known fact. The sooner you understand this the better you will use your voting power in the future, those who can change the system is and will always be those in a controlling position or in a position to vote. And if you still believe in your theory why did you sign up for a crappy PML to go for low entry level wage again at AC. If you had voted with your feet like you said within a short times AC would have need to increase it's wage and start a ripple effect on Canadian market. Instead of this 700 of Jazz pilots forfeit their pension plan, their +80k/years wage on average and more then 3 weeks vacation to go fly a big shiny jet for 55k/year no vacation for the first year and of course start all over again schedule wise. :roll: :?:

EQUAL WORK, EQUAL PAY! it's all I care for right now and ALPA should have been all over this and it should have been all over in the media when the CA was sign, just like it is in the US market and elsewhere in the world. How a company can easily promote discrimination based on a date of hire like this is silly. And when 2025 comes will be able to work all together to really improve the Canadian pilot working condition, there is still a lot to be done schedule wise and in other area like experience recognition.

Regional flying is not and should not be considered a stepping stone. There will be always a need for regional flying and there will be always pilots who rather fly shorter leg and be home every night instead of doing crazy red eye flights or living the jet lag dreams. And if AC wants it's provider to be a stepping stone for mainline then they should step in the game for real and implement a real flow through or a national seniority list like it was attempted before. Not this stupid PMA worthless list. :roll:
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by rudder »

There is a suggestion that Jazz has placed hundreds of pilots on some type of permanent and all encompassing b scale. Is that in fact the case? Every pilot hired at Jazz has the same scheduling rules and benefits. Every pilot hired at Jazz can reach the top of the pay scale. Meanwhile, at AC there is an institutional reduced pay scale for any pilot that operates a Rouge aircraft. And any pilot operating a Rouge aircraft does so with most of the scheduling rules waived. So, if there is a true example of a b scale in Canada then it would be what is in place at AC.

Both AC and Jazz have appallingly low new-hire pay rates that extend for 4 years. That is far longer term on reduced new-hire pay than any other North American carriers (Captain upgrades excepted). Industry standard pay is 60-67% of CA pay for FO after year 1.

Both AC and Jazz have terminated new-hire subscription to existing pilot DB Plans. New-hire subscription to DB Plans has been terminated at almost all North American carriers. AC has done a better job in terms of a replacement pension plan for new-hires (superior benefit). However, the fact is that 99% of AC new-hire pilots will retire at AC and likely less than 33% of new-hire pilots at Jazz will retire at Jazz.

The pay upside at Jazz owing to status pay is that the CA pay rate for 37/50 seat aircraft is very high by industry standard (currency exchange rates excepted). CA pay for 76/78 seat aircraft is on par with industry standard with very high end rates for Q400 pilots.

It would appear that the AC commercial strategy going forward is to repatriate flying from Express using mainline resources. In the short term that is using A319 lift deployed at Rouge. A319 leases are being secured/extended on very favourable terms. In the longer term, the arrival of the C-series will accelerate Express flying replacement under the ACPA RRA provisions. AC is not currently a customer for the smaller CS100 but that may change. The accelerated retirement schedule for the E190’s is a sign that AC wants to migrate to most efficient fleet sooner rather than later.

AC can get away with poor new-hire pay as the pilot application drawer will always be overflowing due to long term compensation potential. Jazz competes with many other carriers for finite entry level pilot resources. Offering low ball new-hire pay in exchange for either a rapid upgrade (if qualified) or an opportunity for an AC interview (if qualified AND competitive) is a strategy that may not be sustainable.

The sooner that all airline pilots in Canada coalesce under one representational umbrella the sooner that pilot pay, work rules, and benefits can be removed as a management tool for cost competitiveness.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by prop2jet »

Mart wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:32 am
prop2jet wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:39 am It has been said over and over again. All those who signed up to work at Jazz on the current CA (Post 2015) knew exactly what they signed up for.
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Bold and untrue statement. New 2015 CA was ratify somewhere in January or February. And Effective July 1st july 2015. But Jazz held GS in March the same year. So I'm pretty sure those in the March to July GS didn't have the final wording in hand when they sign up. Also PMA wording was completed 2 years later or so. So for those who signup to Jazz at AC request for the AC mobility didn't have the detail of the mobility agreement when they sign in. So yes I would tend to agree they have the right to be mad today.

But again we are heading the wrong direction. The problem is all about equal work equal pay that is the basic of our workforce in Canada and should remain. Jazz open the path to discrimination in our rank and thats is totally unacceptable. ALPA and Jazz where proud to go in the media saying they sign a record 10 years CA with competitive wage but they never mention they would discriminate a full generation of pilots.

I don't care about how you had it hard in the past and you think because of that everyone else should go trough the same hard path, my grandfather died mining without adequate protective equipment will I ask the new generation of miner to do the same? Some of your logic seems to go that way. :roll:

I don't care that you have DB pension plan, good for you you were able to cash out on this when economic was going through the roof. But now that you you know these plan are long gone and never to come back, you should show a bit more respect for those you will still be working towards their 70 to fill in your pension IF it tanked.

I don't care about the 37K first year pay, like it was said before, unfortunately it is the standard wage in Canada for regional aviation. And also like someone said before you knew the wage when you sign up. I was able to provide for my kids and have a house with far lower wage when I started my career, so seeing today kids living with their parents, but having iPhone, iPad, iCar, iTravel, iName It, I cannot agree with their complaints. At the end of the day it's all about choice. Average Canadian wage is 37 700$/years. So I think out of school pilots who complain on entry level pay should look around a bit.

And for those of you who still continue to dream about a theory that if nobody sign up, the wage would increase. You are badly educate on how the system works. Again, there is far less job available then their is human able to work on the planet, that is a known fact. The sooner you understand this the better you will use your voting power in the future, those who can change the system is and will always be those in a controlling position or in a position to vote. And if you still believe in your theory why did you sign up for a crappy PML to go for low entry level wage again at AC. If you had voted with your feet like you said within a short times AC would have need to increase it's wage and start a ripple effect on Canadian market. Instead of this 700 of Jazz pilots forfeit their pension plan, their +80k/years wage on average and more then 3 weeks vacation to go fly a big shiny jet for 55k/year no vacation for the first year and of course start all over again schedule wise. :roll: :?:

EQUAL WORK, EQUAL PAY! it's all I care for right now and ALPA should have been all over this and it should have been all over in the media when the CA was sign, just like it is in the US market and elsewhere in the world. How a company can easily promote discrimination based on a date of hire like this is silly. And when 2025 comes will be able to work all together to really improve the Canadian pilot working condition, there is still a lot to be done schedule wise and in other area like experience recognition.

Regional flying is not and should not be considered a stepping stone. There will be always a need for regional flying and there will be always pilots who rather fly shorter leg and be home every night instead of doing crazy red eye flights or living the jet lag dreams. And if AC wants it's provider to be a stepping stone for mainline then they should step in the game for real and implement a real flow through or a national seniority list like it was attempted before. Not this stupid PMA worthless list. :roll:
The first couple of classes on the new CA were I concede the only group justifiably burned by the terms and conditions of the new CA.

The PMA/PML whatever you want to call it is a creation of the Management of AC. The first PML was incorporated into our CA as an LOU - something I frankly take issue with given that the negots committee was not involved in its creation. ACPA had their 2 cents input when it came down to the deferral language, and that came about post ratification if I recall. The current PML in place has been again devised by AC with no input by either ACPA or ALPA.

As to my DB... pension, No B scale pilot makes any financial contribution to it. You have your own DC plan. The DB plan is only as good as the Company stays in business and is fully funded - which it currently is not.

As to your desire for EQUAL PAY for EQUAL work... Are you suggesting that a Day 1 pilot should earn the same as a 25 year veteran?
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