Westwind

[FlyGy]

Makes perfect business sense. Pat sells TWA for a nice price to WEW, WEW goes broke, Pat buys back his airline and WEW assets for pennies on the dollar and resumes serving the North with no competition in sight.

[leftoftrack]

He didn't buy it. They hired him for a new position. He was already employed by them as the accountable executive at TWA after he sold to WW

[FlyGy]

I know he didn't buy it......yet. I was just looking into my crystal ball.

[madjones]

And now this...

http://www.panow.com/article/753958/fir ... air-hangar

[leftoftrack]

That use to be called Jewish lightning, not sure what the non offensive term is for it these days

[7ECA]

That use to be called Jewish lightning, not sure what the non offensive term is for it these days

Interchangeable with "financial combustion". If done well, there shouldn't be a thing left for investigators to investigate - just a dustpan full of ash.

[FlyGy]

I hope this guy wasn't in the hangar, it seems like such a "happy" little plane.

5983902 Photo 718179.jpg (110.42 KiB) Viewed 5651 times

[North Shore]

That use to be called Jewish lightning, not sure what the non offensive term is for it these days

Pretty sure that the correct term - all along - has been 'arson'...

[schnitzel2k3]

That use to be called Jewish lightning, not sure what the non offensive term is for it these days

Pretty sure that the correct term - all along - has been 'arson'...

Lol.

[bobcaygeon]

I hope this guy wasn't in the hangar, it seems like such a "happy" little plane.
5983902 Photo 718179.jpg

I hope it was. It was a tired bird 23 years ago when I flew it.

I believe a Saab, Twin Otter, King Air, and a couple of helicopters were in the hangar.

[FlyGy]

I hope this guy wasn't in the hangar, it seems like such a "happy" little plane.
5983902 Photo 718179.jpg

I hope it was. It was a tired bird 23 years ago when I flew it.

I believe a Saab, Twin Otter, King Air, and a couple of helicopters were in the hangar.

Ouch...a SAAB too? Ahh well, Once the insurance pays out I know where there are some ATR-42s that will probably be available at bargain basement prices soon.

[JL]

TSB update on investigation

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inves ... 7c0146.asp

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

[7ECA]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

Looks like they've got (at best) a 12' fibreglass and a 6' fibreglass ladder.

[Zaibatsu]

It was after one particularly miserable time I spent on top of a cube van chipping ice off the tail in the middle of of nowhere that I added the airborne icing/freezing temperatures/deice equipment into my decision making. I’ve even flown around under the overcast at freezing for a few minutes to let the ice sublimate off before landing.

How can a company like Westwind not have the resources or the knowhow to stay out those situations? How could the crew have decided it was better to depart and risk everything than to find a solution to deice the plane and hold up until the problem was solved?

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

Looks like they've got (at best) a 12' fibreglass and a 6' fibreglass ladder.

Even worse, can't touch the tail had the pilots wanted to. I guess it wouldn't take much to assume this has been going on for years. Unfortunately the luck of the operation ran out.

Talk about the danger of norms.

Sorry to all the WWA pilots out there sitting on the sidelines. Good luck in the job search, fortunately no better time to be applying than now.

S.

[bobcaygeon]

Two words:

Company Culture.

Normalization of Deviation

TC in PNR knows this is how operators deice as it is common. Yet they failed to take action. They are part of the problem.

IMHO

[telex]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

[AWOS]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

That looks about adequate for a King Air or a Navajo. Not for an ATR.

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

That looks about adequate for a King Air or a Navajo. Not for an ATR.

Agreed.

[tps8903]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

[RatherBeFlying]

To deice an ATR, I'd think you need at least a scissor lift, drums of fluid, a trained operator, and a plowed apron safe for the scissor lift. Maybe you'd need a scissor lift with outriggers.

I've spent considerable time on a step ladder scraping frost off a 172. Trust me – that's as high as you want to be on a step ladder on a wind blown ramp.

[telex]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

Not TSBs job.

We’ve also found that it’s important to clarify what the TSB does not do. We don’t assign blame or determine guilt. Neither are we the regulator; we can’t make rules or compel parties to follow them. As such, our findings can’t be used in court, and our witness statements are strictly protected. This also applies to specific recorded information such as on-board voice and video recorders.

The reason for this confidentiality is simple: it helps us do our job better. Witnesses can say what they need, without fear of reprisal or prosecution, so that safety always comes first.

[GARRETT]

I’m the name of trying to save a buck, it has cost a young man his life and permanently changed life for the survivors.
I think it’s high time upper managers at these companies face the music. It’s time the accountable excecutive is actually held accountable! If the accountable excecutive is not held accountable in this case it just confirms that the whole SMS system is bullish!t. To approve of a spray bottle of type-1 and a heating blanket for a 705 aircraft is nothing short of criminal negligence.
As someone mentioned, TC needs to be investigated for negligence as well. It’s their fricken job to check this stuff, they are supposed to be the regulator! Do your job!
This accident didn’t have to happen.

[tps8903]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

Not TSBs job.

We’ve also found that it’s important to clarify what the TSB does not do. We don’t assign blame or determine guilt. Neither are we the regulator; we can’t make rules or compel parties to follow them. As such, our findings can’t be used in court, and our witness statements are strictly protected. This also applies to specific recorded information such as on-board voice and video recorders.

The reason for this confidentiality is simple: it helps us do our job better. Witnesses can say what they need, without fear of reprisal or prosecution, so that safety always comes first.

Would TSB not be in their scope to list a contributing factor of lack of regulation enforcement? If that were indeed deemed to be a contributing cause?

And therefore making recommendations to TC to better enforce standards?

"The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) is responsible for advancing transportation safety. One of the ways it does this is by making recommendations to federal departments and other organizations to eliminate or reduce safety deficiencies".