Citation down North of Kelowna

[CpnCrunch]

In total blockage?

By "failure" (in Maine report) the pilot's radio message also can imply 'not useable' (all of them), so pitot blockage may or may not be realized at that point .. if in fact was still possible. The comparison looks right; in Kelowna also in climb although still in process of the light right turning in the direction of an enroute heading.

In a lot of spatial disorientation accidents, the pilot blames the AI even though it's working fine. When the AI doesn't match up with what your body senses, a natural instinct is to think the AI is broken. The investigation didn't find any possible sources of failure for the AI.

[cncpc]

The comparison looks right; in Kelowna also in climb although still in process of the light right turning in the direction of an enroute heading.

Where do you see the right turn? In Flightaware?

[pdw]

ASN has the flightaware link for the flight.

The first 3 radar hits on there are for two minutes of flight: 360deg, 12deg and 33deg (for 4000', 7000' and 4800' respectively). For the fourth hit at the end of the 3rd minute of data, which shows already off radar, is "estimated" for "74deg". At that point of the flight it does appear (from this data) the AC was approx at the halfway point thru a gradual turning required to get onto an intended easterly heading laid out in the flightaware estimates.

[cncpc]

ASN has the flightaware link for the flight.

The first 3 radar hits on there are for two minutes of flight: 360deg, 12deg and 33deg (for 4000', 7000' and 4800' respectively). For the fourth hit at the end of the 3rd minute of data, which shows already off radar, is "estimated" for "74deg". At that point of the flight it does appear (from this data) the AC was approx at the halfway point thru a gradual turning required to get onto an intended easterly heading laid out in the flightaware estimates.

Ok. Flight Aware. Those aren't all the radar hits that took place between 7200 and 4800. The loss of control was at 7200 after a steady climb at 160 knots with everything normal and the beginnings of a slight right turn onto course for Menbo, I assume. The 33 degree heading was the last heading. It wasn't the only heading on the way down from 7200.

If the assumption is that the climb to 7200 was on autopilot, then what subsequently happened to the autopilot? It doesn't get spatially disoriented.

In a 604 single pilot Citation, do you need a functioning autopilot?

[pdw]

Can't imagine the autopilot not "functioning" upon departure in this aircraft.

[cncpc]

Can't imagine the autopilot not "functioning" upon departure in this aircraft.

Then if it was, it stopped functioning.

[pdw]

There's ones without pitch axis. In earlier discussion was surprised no-one mentioned sticky snow, as there's mention 5ft snow fell somewhere in the mountians at the time ...

The Maine accident had freezing precip (including sticky snow / coarse texture). In rereading the report, sure enough, no mention of static source-intake blockage of any kind except "parked outside in FZRA". That is saying (in report) it was spacial disorientation and verifying it was 'with perfectly functioning instruments'. If the static source is iced shut ... can say instruments are fine ... OK.

Then let's refrase: How would destroyed instruments save evidence to indicate to investigators their static source was iced or not,... seeing that any ice-blockage melts away if the crash site gets above freezing before investigative teams get there.

[BGH]

The impact of the indicator on the instrument face may leave a legible mark,thus giving a clue to what it was indicating when the aircraft impacted the ground.

Daryl

[cncpc]

The airplane climbed on track to 7200 feet and control was lost after a small turn to the right. It was never doing 120 knots after control was lost. That is a misinterpretation from the rough Flight Aware points.

It impacted at very high speed, vertically.

Any Citation pilots with an informed view on whether this climb would have been on autopilot or hand flying?

And the effect on the autopilot of pitot-static icing?

[Zaibatsu]

Likely spatial disorientation likely due lack of proficiency and recency.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/t ... -1.4635541

[Billy the Goat]

I like how fatigue is never considered to be a factor. As though a 17 hour split duty day is not tiring. I guess because it’s legal means he must have been well rested.

[Diadem]

I like how fatigue is never considered to be a factor. As though a 17 hour split duty day is not tiring. I guess because it’s legal means he must have been well rested.

He had ten hours in a hotel. That's not a split duty day, that's a full reset.

[Billy the Goat]

I like how fatigue is never considered to be a factor. As though a 17 hour split duty day is not tiring. I guess because it’s legal means he must have been well rested.

He had ten hours in a hotel. That's not a split duty day, that's a full reset.

Sure. Doesn’t mean he got 8 hours of sleep, or was even rested at all, does it? Can you go to bed at 9AM and sleep all day? I can’t.

[Schooner69A]

An hour flight from Calgary to Kelowna, spend the day in the hotel, and then an hour flight back? Tiring? Not half.

Did fifteen years of similar flying. Single pilot in a turbo Commander 1000 and two-up in Citation and Hawker 700.

The C500 is a great entry level jet, however, given this pilot's age and experience level, it's possible that he was overwhelmed. Or, there were medical factors. We'll never know.

I think that the TSB is hopergroping on it's findings... However, that's their privilege.

Sad for all concerned.

[Zaibatsu]

Yeah, as someone who’s done over a dozen legs extending to a 17 hour duty day, spending a day sitting in a hotel room, sleeping, or otherwise relaxing is not a recipe for fatigue. It’s well above min rest and split/rolling duty days too. A medevac crew should be so lucky.

Nope. Single pilot, low experience, not recent, old jet with old avionics. Couldn’t even track inbound to a beacon on one of the simplest departures there is.

This would not have happened with two experienced and current pilots flying a modern jet. Had this been a charter or fractional, they likely would have had a fresh plane and crew for the return trip, and it probably would have cost less, too.

RIP

[altiplano]

I didn't read the report, but in response to above comments...

I did years of early reports, followed by sitting all day in a hotel and then late flights home.

They are very tiring. Flipping report times to the other side of the clock is difficult. 2 duty periods in the same day is difficult. Day in, day out... do it regularly and the effect compounds.

Aside from that though, he may not have been tired, but it's possible he was... maybe he didn't manage to sleep in the day from either lack of success of lack of trying...

[Billy the Goat]

I didn't read the report, but in response to above comments...

I did years of early reports, followed by sitting all day in a hotel and then late flights home.

They are very tiring. Flipping report times to the other side of the clock is difficult. 2 duty periods in the same day is difficult. Day in, day out... do it regularly and the effect compounds.

Aside from that though, he may not have been tired, but it's possible he was... maybe he didn't manage to sleep in the day from either lack of success of lack of trying...

This is basically my point. I have done it often as well. I dislike it. It’s tiring and error prone and that’s with two crew members. This sort of day combined with all of the factors mentioned previously is not a good recipe.

[Diadem]

Then it's the pilot's responsibility to report that (s)he's unfit for duty. How do you know that the pilot in this situation didn't nap for eight hours? What changes to the duty regs would you like to see? You can only check in once in a calendar day?

[mbav8r]

Then it's the pilot's responsibility to report that (s)he's unfit for duty. How do you know that the pilot in this situation didn't nap for eight hours? What changes to the duty regs would you like to see? You can only check in once in a calendar day?

YES!

To answer your question, how do you know the pilot didn’t nap for 8 hours, years of medevacs where your good until or fresh at tells me this pilot did not nap for 8 hours. You cannot go to bed the night before a duty day begins, work 2 hours and somehow go back to bed for your 8 hour prone rest period.
Whether or not fatigue played a role is up for debate but to suggest this pilot was reset by how long he was on the ground is absurd. This was a continuous duty day split by a very long time in between and he may or may not have rested at all, probably should have but I guarantee it wasn’t 8 hours continuous prone rest.
T.C should be cracking down on this type of “reset” but have turned a blind eye for as long as I’ve been flying and no doubt much longer than that.

[ditar]

What changes to the duty regs would you like to see? You can only check in once in a calendar day?

I second the yes. Anything else ignores biology.