Navajo lands on the street in yyc

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digits_
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:29 pm The lack of information on something as simple as determining if this airplane ran out of fuel is typical of aviation in Canada.

If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.

That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.

They should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by C.W.E. »

Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.
I clearly said " If they ran out of fuel. "

Do you disagree they should be charged and just let it go as another slight mistake?

I often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.

How long do you think it should take to determine if that machine was out of fuel digits?
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switchflicker
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by switchflicker »

Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status. They being the investigation authority ie TSB
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C.W.E.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by C.W.E. »

Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status.
Digits did.
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel,
They being the investigation authority ie TSB
The TSB?

They take forever to release any findings but maybe eventually they will share it with the public.
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Posthumane
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by Posthumane »

Blue Yonder wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:06 am It's been a while since this NOTAM was issued but, make me wonder if the AVGAS issue played a hand here.

CYHQ
180001 CYHQ NATIONAL
CYHQ POTENTIAL QUALITY ISSUE OF FUEL 100LL (JET A NOT AFFECTED)
DISTRIBUTED BY IMPERIAL OIL (EXTENT UNKNOWN)
VERIFY LOCALLY FOR AVBL
1802160008 TIL APRX 1802231800
Just heard through the rumour mill that Integra Air (Bar XH) in Medicine Hat just closed their doors yesterday to all avgas sales due to internal issues (I think related to a change in ownership?). They are the only supplier that does public sales in CYXH. Super T has their own bowser for Avgas for their own use, though it's not huge. I'm not sure how often they have to refill it or who their supplier is. I haven't filled up in the last week in Medicine Hat so I'm not sure if there were any issues with fuel availability prior to this incident.

Edit: There's no NOTAM about 100LL availability so the rumour could be BS... take with salt.
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digits_
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.
I clearly said " If they ran out of fuel. "
No you didn't. You changed your post after I quoted you to add that. My post has your original post quoted in it.

A pretty pathetic way to try and win an argument.

I often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.
Me too
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C.W.E.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by C.W.E. »

Digits:

If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?

If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.

It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.

Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by AuxBatOn »

Would you rather they make hasty conclusions to satisfy your thirst for blood or take the time to investigate and exclude any other possible (note I did not say probable) failure mechanisms before making conclusions that may destroy a company or an individual?
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Last edited by AuxBatOn on Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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digits_
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:17 pm Digits:

If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?

If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.

It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.

Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?
- Broken fuel line (takes time to determine that with certainty, did it happen before, during or after flight?)
- Fuel might have leaked out of plane during the crash
- Faulty fuel truck meter
- Faulty airplane fuel indicator
- Leak in tanks
- Obstruction in tanks or vent which causes reduction in fuel volume in bladder tanks
- Broken fuel selector(s)
- Firewall shut off valves malfunctioning
- Crew mishandling switches (eg both cross feeding from empty tank)
- Crew error while fueling up

And I am sure there are many more possible options that I didn't think of here.

They probably feathered the engines because they both failed, which doesn't give us a lot of extra info, as they shouldn't have crashed in the first place if at least one engine was operating.
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trey kule
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by trey kule »

A difficult question indeed......AuxBat

Based on what I have read here,maybe we could seek a compromise. We could jump to a quick conclusion based on wild speculation, and rally the villagers to a lynch mob.

Then, when the facts do come out, if we are wrong...well who really cares? The fun is over and everyone is off to speculate on whatever the next accident is all about.. .

Now full caveat...This will all be done respectfully, and the aim is only to learn from it, because, you know, a navajo has never crashed before. And there is absolutely nothing to be learned from accidents of more than 6 months in the past...where you got the idea anyone should wait for the facts is beyond me..experts here do not need facts to come to conclusions.
Or discuss possabilities because waiting for the facts is just so darn hard...
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C.W.E.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by C.W.E. »

Well I guess I was a bit quick to suggest the airplane may have had no usable fuel in it based on nothing more than what could be determined in a very short time period.

So I will apologise to anyone who may be offended and to the crew for my rush to speculation.

C.W. E.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by goingnowherefast »

Bladder becomes detached inside the wing, dramatically decreasing the capacity and giving erroneous quantity indications. One tank coughs, so they cross feed from the other side expecting they have enough. Turns out the other fuel gauge is not super accurate, because they never are, so they run it dry too thinking they had enough.

Or, they take lots of fuel because they can. Once they finish the outboards, the one fuel selector breaks. Well that's no problem, just cross feed from the other inboard. Just just short of the runway, they suck that tank dry. Too bad there's 90 minutes of fuel in the other inboard that's unusable due to the broken selector.

Now Cat works for the TSB and has already hung both pilots at the gallows because they obviously didn't take enough fuel, criminal negligence and all. Also because that's what the TSB does, judge jury and executioner.

Now for something helpful. Back when I flew Navajos, you always filled the inboards first. Everybody typically knew this, so any mention of outboard fuel assumed full inboards. So one day I say to the fueller "50 in each outboard". I'm doing a quick check of the plane before hopping in while the FO pays. I open the inboard caps, and to my surprise, they're not full! Needless to say, we ordered more fuel, but it's easy to see how fuelling errors can happen.
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by RatherBeFlying »

The NTSB promptly opens public dockets and updates them as the information comes in. FDR, redacted CVR, fuel state, component and structural status are usually released within weeks.

The advantage is that the accident or incident is top of mind in the aviation community. Crews and maintenance pay attention to timely data releases to see what can be done to prevent the same accident in their own operations.

Two years later when the report comes out, the attention level has inevitably gone down.
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TG
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by TG »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:05 pm Well I guess I was a bit quick to suggest the airplane may have had no usable fuel in it based on nothing more than what could be determined in a very short time period.

So I will apologise to anyone who may be offended and to the crew for my rush to speculation.

C.W. E.
Bravo! Very nice of you to admit it :prayer:
Reasons for dual fail are not always as clear cut as we would like to think.

There is a very good report here about a dual engine failure accident back in 2011 in Saskatoon.
A hard fail followed by fuel starvation on the other! Just by saying that it is very easy to jump to conclusions and put all the blame on the crew. They did all they could in this case.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 1c0047.asp

Worth the time to read it.
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PT6onH20
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by PT6onH20 »

Do NOT question CWE.

He has been flying for over 60 years, without an accident on record. He learned how to fly an airbus IN THE FACTORY. He worked for a major movie studio and was paid very well for it. He also holds an autogyro licence AND flew airshows in Europe.

I don't know him, but I know this because he reminds us every other month. We could learn a thing or two. HANG EM ALL, LET TC SORT EM OUT.
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by AvifiskAlly »

PT6onH20 wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 5:57 pm Do NOT question CWE.

He has been flying for over 60 years, without an accident on record. He learned how to fly an airbus IN THE FACTORY. He worked for a major movie studio and was paid very well for it. He also holds an autogyro licence AND flew airshows in Europe.

I don't know him, but I know this because he reminds us every other month. We could learn a thing or two. HANG EM ALL, LET TC SORT EM OUT.
And....... what is your point
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by C.W.E. »

He has been flying for over 60 years,
To be accurate I will have completed 65 years since my first flying lesson on June 23, less than two months from now. :mrgreen:
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by AuxBatOn »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:11 pm
He has been flying for over 60 years,
To be accurate I will have completed 65 years since my first flying lesson on June 23, less than two months from now. :mrgreen:

Cool story bro.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by Schooner69A »

"...have completed 65 years since my first flying lesson..."

Ya old toad. You got me beat by five years! (;>0)
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tsgas
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc

Post by tsgas »

never put all of your faith into fuel gauges, which are often referred to as , idiot gauges. :rolleyes:
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