Exce$$ive ground briefings

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photofly
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by photofly »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 1:22 am Photofly....Your message gets lost in you hostile delivery.
The f*ck it does.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by PilotDAR »

I see two elements to be considered: Was the service value added, provided with adequate skill, and in proportion to the required need? And, do we, in our society, expect a person to provide a service without being paid to do so?

I expect a person who is providing me a service I request, to be paid to do so. As the person requesting the service, and receiving it, I should pay. That goes for any service, including flying instruction, airborne, or on the ground.

A person who seeks out and participates in a new learning experience, will, in the early stages, have to trust the service provider for the quality, and appropriate balance of content of the service provision. As they progress, and self study with experience, they will more be able to judge some aspects of content and amount of ground training - but it will never be none! If they would like to reduce the balance of ground to flying instruction in favour of more flying, come awesomely prepared each lesson, and the instructor should recognize that. That recognition does not mean no ground briefing, just closer to the minimum which is appropriate to that student, or... that wise instructor uses the planned briefing time to brief ahead to an upcoming topic.

That being said, all pilots should receive periodic ground briefing, just for review. I opine that participation here might contribute to that in some cases. Newer pilots will need more. I have felt for decades that the stated minimum requirements for a PPL are too little for the responsibility associated with that license. I understand that the values are set as a compromise, and internationally considered. That's the way it's got to be - but it's inadequate. There is so much that new pilots don't know, particularly when they move on to more advanced types. When I have done advanced type training (Piper Arrow 3/Bellanca Viking/SM1019 as a few examples) for new to class pilots, my ground briefings would be planned as being several hours initial and during the training. And that is based upon how well prepared they came. When I have done float and amphibian training, the ground briefing time would be many hours. And, by the way, usually, when I have given a float rating on an amphibian, the required amount of flying has been 25 hours, not just 7 - an expectation of insurers in many cases. If a pilot who hired me to train them, resisted ground briefing, they would find themselves airborne soon after, with a combination of unplanned events, for which they would rapidly recognized they were poorly prepared. Then the ground briefing might happen in the air, with the aircraft operating cost added!

I don't accept a PPL student trying to minimize their flight training experience, nor expecting instruction for no cost. I don't expect a dedicated instructor to finish their day's work, and look at the amount they earned with disappointment. When my daughter works as a waitress, she will always come away with many times in tip money what she was base paid - can instructors say that? Would the person worried about excessive ground briefing time (cost) tip their waitress at lunch? Oh, and that kindly tipped waitress does not do their job with the risk of spending three months in hospital as a result of a training flight!

New pilots, when you have decided for yourself that you would like to learn to be a safe pilot, who is well prepared for the common risks and challenges of flying, budget an extra thousand dollars for training you did not imagine at the beginning. You may spend it on extra ground briefing, a couple of extra lessons, or perhaps a little advanced type training along the way. Or, if you're truly an awesome pilot, it'll be there for some additional rental once you're licensed. If, in the mean time, you would like some valuable flight training information for completely free - read it here! A number of us post, and some of those posts have great value and relevance to training, and it costs you only your time!

Training is like fuel. It's really stressful when you're airborne, things are going wrong, and you wish you'd bought more before takeoff!
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altiplano
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by altiplano »

Aviatard wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 3:55 am That's great you found someone who was willing to work for free. Do you expect to work the first 10 minutes of every hour for nothing? No? Then why should flight instructors not bill for the time they spend delivering you a service? Briefings are not optional, they're mandated by the CARs.
That's how airlines do it...
I always work the first 1:15 for free...
flight planning, ramp checks, and yes briefings... briefing the FAs, briefing the departure, making a PA to brief the passengers... not to mention sorting out everyone else's problems, and then the time between, the delays, the broken gates, the CBSA delays... and the last 15min+ too...

That's part of the job to go flying and it's all unpaid, maybe briefing time should be looked at the same way.
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photofly
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by photofly »

It’s easy for someone on a six figure salary to tell others to work for free.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by B208 »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 7:56 pm When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.
I had a student adopt this approach with me once. He was doing his instructor rating. I told him to find another instructor.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by rookiepilot »

Tricky subject. As usual Dar brings a very wise perspective.

I'm happy to pay for -- quality -- ground briefing time. 98% of my billing I thought was very fair, FWIW.

I have paid for extra instructional or review flights at every stage, pre ppl, night, Cpl, IFR -- because I thought It would help me stay alive. It's not a race, students.

The absolute stupidest commentary on these sites has to be "I got my PPL in XX hours back in the day. WTF is wrong with today's students".

Within reason -- who cares? Good for you! If you are progressing normally and have a good learning relationship with an attentive and motivated instructor who wants to see you succeed, while conducting the flights in a safe and professional manner, that's what matters......anyway.......

The only flight I remember having a real issue with billing, the instructor decided to stop the aircraft on the ramp, engine running, and surprise me with an "extra", extensive ground briefing right there.

That happened exactly once.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

photofly wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 10:55 pm
Conflicting Traffic wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 8:17 pm For a well prepared student on a lesson that covers only straight and level (which itself is questionable)
What do you find questionable about it?
This early in the training, there are lots of ancillary bits and pieces that are new to the student but have to happen just by the nature of being in an airplane. If S&L is a correct exercise to be covering, then the student has likely only seen Taxiing and Attitudes & Movements previously. What about pilotage, radio, climbs, descents, turns, ancillary controls? Maybe these things have already been briefed, or even flown, but based on the commentary here, that seems unlikely. In any case, if climbs, descents, and turns have been flown but S&L hasn't, that seems a little off to me. If all of these things were in fact briefed with S&L during the lesson in question, then the 1 hour time is reasonable. But again, that isn't the impression I have based on the commentary here.
photofly wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 4:25 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 1:22 am Photofly....Your message gets lost in you hostile delivery.
The f*ck it does.
:lol:
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Conflicting Traffic please advise.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by B208 »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 9:14 pm
Please point out where ground briefing is a "mandatory" in the LICENSING REQUIREMENT. I've pasted the requirements below for your ease of reference... in fact not only is no time specified, pre-flight briefings are not specified at all... instructors might want to do it, but it isn't a requirement.
405.25 to 405.30 reserved


Division IV — Flight Training Operations


Training Flight Briefings

405.31 No person shall commence a training flight unless the trainee has received from the flight instructor

(a) a pre-flight briefing; and


(b) where new flight exercises are to be conducted during the flight, preparatory ground instruction.
That took me 12 minutes (0.2 of an hour) to look up. My rate is $50/hr. You owe me $10. I accept Paypal and e-transfer.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by PilotDAR »


When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

I had a student adopt this approach with me once. He was doing his instructor rating. I told him to find another instructor.
I too have declined to further train a couple of pilots who were resistant to ground briefing, or flying enough to be able to demonstrate the minimum required skills for the type. I also have declined to write a letter of competence to an insurance company, when the pilot could not demonstrate competence on type.

Happily, I find more often than not, eager pilots will willingly accept and absorb an appropriate amount of training. I judge and meter this by explaining to them why I think that the training (which exceeds the minimums) will benefit them in safety. For the few who resist, I explain why, based upon my experience (which is why they sought to hire me) I think they need more. Then it's up to them....
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Well in my friend’s defence, it was not he who thought he was getting milked. I thought an hour of pre brief for straight and level flight was overkill. Guess times have changed and it takes longer to teach the basics.
Where is Cat when you need him! Lol
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ReserveTank
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by ReserveTank »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 9:41 am Well in my friend’s defence, it was not he who thought he was getting milked. I thought an hour of pre brief for straight and level flight was overkill. Guess times have changed and it takes longer to teach the basics.
Where is Cat when you need him! Lol

I don't believe that 1 hour is overkill at all. It's an extremely important lesson and the fundamentals need to be reviewed. Most training issues stem from blowing through this portion of training. Effective ground time costs a lot less that repeating flight lessons. Some people accused me of milking on the ground, but I always had the lowest flight times to PPL for my students, compared to my colleagues.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by C.W.E. »

Where is Cat when you need him! Lol
Oh, I'm here and reading these subjects. :mrgreen:

Ground briefing is very important as it gives the student an outline of what the flight will cover and also gives the instructor clues on what the student does not know.

Once the briefing is finished and you go flying you teach and review only the subjects briefed, in other words once the student has a grasp of the subject and can demonstrate they can fly the manoeuvres briefed you should land and debrief the lesson.

The best improvement to flight training in Canada would be to get rid of the need for a FTU-OC and allow flight training to be done like the FAA does.
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lownslow
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by lownslow »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 11:58 amThe best improvement to flight training in Canada would be to get rid of the need for a FTU-OC and allow flight training to be done like the FAA does.
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OldInstructor
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by OldInstructor »

I was involved in management at two different schools. We chose not to bill for prep briefing unless under extraordinary circumstances but charged a higher rate for the dual and paid the instructors more. Unless all costs are up front your clients will feel duped.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by C.W.E. »

Back to my saying what Canada needs is to get rid of the FTU-OC fiasco and allow instructors to teach based on the fact they are licensed flight instructors like the FAA does.

We have T.C. inspector's that read these forums I am sure, maybe one could tell us why we need a FTU-OC to be able to teach the PPL?

I believe B.P.F. is a T.C. employee now and is in the flight training department?

Maybe he can comment?
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by tbayav8er »

I mean...certain briefings take longer than others. Maybe an hour for the briefing before going on the dual X/C is reasonable, but I think during ab initio, half an hour is usually plenty.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by C.W.E. »

I generally take longer on the post flight de-briefing because that is where we correct mistakes that were made during the flight we just finished.

And I use the video of the flight as a de-briefing tool, it is unbeatable for showing where it started to go wrong and how to prevent or correct for it in the future.
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smashmonkey
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by smashmonkey »

Was it only straight and level or was it checking the weather, an explanation on where the run up was going to take place, where the training area is, what ancillary controls are, what is going to happen with talking on the radio, etc? This can most definitely take an hour. By the time I was done instructing I realized that I had no interest in training students who didn't want to pay for my time. I never "milked" my students and always had their best interest first. I had one student leave me for another instructor but what they didn't realize is that he might be cheaper on the ground, he made up for it here and there by not cancelling flights that wouldn't benefit the student, making the student do an exercise a few extra times dual, etc.
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Unlike in Canada where all flight training occurs pursuent to CAR 406, flight training in the USA can occur under 2 sets of regulations Part 61 or Part 141 of the Federal Air Regulations.

The differences are described below

Part 61 vs. Part 141 Flight Training:
When a flight school talks about training under Part 61 or being a Part 141 approved school, it is talking about the federal regulations under which it has the authority to train pilots. Both sets of regulations define minimum requirements for pilot training and certification.
Any FAA-approved flight instructor, whether associated with a flight school or not, may train a student under Part 61 regulations.
Part 141 regulations are related to the structure and approval of flight schools. Training under Part 141 regulations is permitted only by instructors associated with an FAA-approved flight school. In order to become approved, a flight school must meet certain requirements and submit each curriculum it wishes to have approved to the FAA for review. Part 141 approved schools are subject to regular surveillance audits by the FAA and must meet minimum pass rates on the practical exams.

My understanding is that for at least for aspiring commercial pilots, the Part 141 schools have become the preferred training providers because that is what commercial operators want. Of note FAA oversight of Part 141 schools is considerably higher than TC provides for Canadian FTU’s
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Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings

Post by Bede »

C.W.E. wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:57 pm And I use the video of the flight as a de-briefing tool, it is unbeatable for showing where it started to go wrong and how to prevent or correct for it in the future.
That's a really good idea. How do you mount the camera?
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