Vote results.

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com: "Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."

Putting some numbers to this:

Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019

So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).

So if the WJ pilots are asking for industry standard, how do other airlines exist?

85% is a fake number from Cam Kenyon. Nickname Camshaft. Ask any pilot at Frontier Airlines. He’s a trained manipulating lawyer, working for purely the companies gain

[Mach1]

Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com: "Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."

Putting some numbers to this:

Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019

So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).

It is a rare and lovely day when math makes me laugh. And that rare day is today... Thank you.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

The industry is forever broken in Canada......good luck

That is the truth!

[Fanblade]

Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com: "Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."

Putting some numbers to this:

Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019

So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).

It is a rare and lovely day when math makes me laugh. And that rare day is today... Thank you.

Did WJ really make that claim? Tell me it isn’t so.

When peddling BS you never make it that obvious. When someone digs into the claim, at a minimum, a plausibly contorted rationalized explanation is required. It’s almost an art at AC.

The WJ Claim looks like amature hour.

[BE02 Driver]

Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com: "Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."

Putting some numbers to this:

Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019

So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).

It is a rare and lovely day when math makes me laugh. And that rare day is today... Thank you.

Did WJ really make that claim? Tell me it isn’t so.

When peddling BS you never make it that obvious. When someone digs into the claim, at a minimum, a plausibly contorted rationalized explanation is required. It’s almost an art at AC.

The WJ Claim looks like amature hour.

Yes sir, they did. For public viewing on WJPILOTFACTS.COM.

http://www.wjpilotfacts.com/update-may-11-2018/

It also says there in the FAQ that they don't believe in bargaining in public, the very first FAQ. Then they go on to bargain in public with this post.

[Piston-Broke]

“We won’t negotiate in public but we will publish all our internal memos, and biased communication to our pilots, via a website for all the public to see”

[lostaviator]

It's time for someone else to retire.

[Piston-Broke]

in·teg·ri·ty
inˈteɡrədē/Submit
noun
1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
"he is known to be a man of integrity"
synonyms: honesty, probity, rectitude, honor, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness

[YYZSaabGuy]

When peddling BS you never make it that obvious. When someone digs into the claim, at a minimum, a plausibly contorted rationalized explanation is required. It’s almost an art at AC.

The WJ Claim looks like amature hour.

Agreed, the number on its face looks one-sided. Then again, WestJet management will be aware that they are subject to strict regulatory requirements regarding timely disclosure (for example, on a company-owned but publicly accessible website) of material information, which the above arguably is. I'm very confident that somebody, likely in WestJet's corporate finance group, will have developed a model analyzing the cost of the ALPA proposals and supporting a build-up to the $1.274Bn 5-year impact quoted above.

Whether the assumptions underlying that analysis are appropriate is of course debatable, but there will at a minimum be something resembling a defensible rationale in place.

[yyc757]

Things that don't add up:

Saying our pilot costs will take away most of our profit.

AC's pilot costs are higher than WJ and yet they are profitable. (And could have investment grade corporate rating soon)

Here's another one: "he with the lowest costs wins".

And yet AC is applying tactics to have lower costs on certain markets. (Say 777HD versus 737-800 YVR-YYZ for example )

It almost seems like we've been enabling management by providing lower costs when in fact they should have had to work harder to lower costs and improve margins by running an airline efficiently.

[Maurice]

Legitimate question...

Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:

"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."

So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?

Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?

You can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.

If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.

Your buying into the lies. If you really researched the numbers there is no way the pilots would cost an increase of 85%! What do we cost the company now? It’s between 2-3% of yearly costs.

In saying that, the math doesn’t add up. I get it, your not an ALPA supporter, but it’s your responsibility to find out the truth. Call CAM, ask him about his math. It’s lies to divide the group. Simple

Speaking of math not adding up, where did you get the 2-3% of costs from?

[aerobod]

You can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.

If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.

Your buying into the lies. If you really researched the numbers there is no way the pilots would cost an increase of 85%! What do we cost the company now? It’s between 2-3% of yearly costs.

In saying that, the math doesn’t add up. I get it, your not an ALPA supporter, but it’s your responsibility to find out the truth. Call CAM, ask him about his math. It’s lies to divide the group. Simple

Speaking of math not adding up, where did you get the 2-3% of costs from?

For WestJet, that number is about 6% of costs for pilot compensation. Total corporate employee compensation bill is about 25% of total costs (varies mainly with fuel expanding or contracting it's portion).

[schnitzel2k3]

You can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.

If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.

Your buying into the lies. If you really researched the numbers there is no way the pilots would cost an increase of 85%! What do we cost the company now? It’s between 2-3% of yearly costs.

In saying that, the math doesn’t add up. I get it, your not an ALPA supporter, but it’s your responsibility to find out the truth. Call CAM, ask him about his math. It’s lies to divide the group. Simple

Speaking of math not adding up, where did you get the 2-3% of costs from?

60% of the time people bull$hiting works everytime. That especially includes WS management.

I think someone threw that out a few months ago in an angry WS thread to justify their position in an argument.

Now it's 'fact'.

Good luck guys with arranging the agreement you deserve. No sarcasm.

S.

[Zaibatsu]

Aviation is strewn with the corpses of airlines that unions bankrupted.

[Boreas]

Aviation is strewn with the corpses of airlines that unions bankrupted.

Yeah... You WestJet guys better reconsider.

[FL410AV8R]

Aviation is strewn with the corpses of airlines that unions bankrupted.

Try again. Aviation is strewn with the corpses of airlines that executives and CEOs have bankrupted. Unions don't make financial or network decisions and most certainly don't control all the expenditures. Supposedly smart people with fancy titles do that.

Just one example would be Delta through the 90s and 2000s, the book Airline Without a Pilot by Harry L. Nolan is a concise and interesting read.
https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/ho ... =&sortKey=

[complexintentions]

So unions are a symptom of corporate dysfunction, not the cause.

Hmm. Not exactly a huge improvement over Zaibatsu's comment, if you're hoping for a positive outcome to this whole mess and think unionization will be your salvation.

[LegalWeedKiller]

So unions are a symptom of corporate dysfunction, not the cause.

Hmm. Not exactly a huge improvement over Zaibatsu's comment, if you're hoping for a positive outcome to this whole mess and think unionization will be your salvation.

Unionization was a precursor for unity within the WestJet Pilot group. If you don’t see that then you have not spoken to a WestJet pilot recently.

Cheers

[LegalWeedKiller]

This article seems to fairly reflect how a lot of WestJet pilots are feeling.


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar ... -ride.html


AltaCorp Capital’s Chris Murray — who recently downgraded his rating of the company to underperform — said WestJet management’s plan to use an outside provider to staff its new, ultra-low-fare carrier Swoop is an “egregious shot across the bow” of its nascent pilots’ union that thumbs its nose at labour law and is almost certain to fail.

When the pilots were represented by an employee association, WestJet had agreed they would fly all of the company’s flights, Murray said in an interview with the Star.

“But now that they want to unionize, they’ve said, ‘No that’s not the case and we’re going to hire third-party pilots at a different set of wage rates,’” he said.

“A lot of the pilots are saying, ‘Hang on! You’re actually displacing WestJet routes and using WestJet planes, so tell me how you’re not outsourcing my job.’”


When I say ‘fairly reflect’, the comments from most WestJet pilots are a lot stronger than ‘hang on’.

WestJet Flying WestJet Pilots

The airplanes literally still belong to WestJet an Alberta Partnership yet they are outsourcing the pilots.

Que the shame bell from game of thrones!

[Eric Janson]

Zaibatsu isn't wrong - one example is Sabena.

They were on the verge of bankruptcy and there was a rescue plan in place - but it meant a 30% wage cut across the board.

The Pilot's Union publicly stated that they'd rather see the doors close than accept a single penny in cuts (I saw it happen live on TV) - then they went on strike.

The doors closed and everyone lost their job.

Interesting sidenote:- All the leaders in the Pilots Union have been blacklisted in Belgium - no company will hire them. My Belgian colleagues have confirmed this is true.