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Boreas
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Boreas »

The Europeans know how to get it done!

It seems like the Lufty guys go on strike every other year.
Now who wouldn't want to see some WestJet executive get torn apart as they're climbing over a fence? :mrgreen:
Not very Canadian... but still.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

Zaibatsu wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 2:29 pm Aviation is strewn with the corpses of airlines that unions bankrupted.
Can you revise any examples?
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

Eric Janson wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 1:23 am Zaibatsu isn't wrong - one example is Sabena.

They were on the verge of bankruptcy and there was a rescue plan in place - but it meant a 30% wage cut across the board.

The Pilot's Union publicly stated that they'd rather see the doors close than accept a single penny in cuts (I saw it happen live on TV) - then they went on strike.

The doors closed and everyone lost their job.

Interesting sidenote:- All the leaders in the Pilots Union have been blacklisted in Belgium - no company will hire them. My Belgian colleagues have confirmed this is true.
Your comparing apples to oranges. Let’s see an example of a company with the financial health of Westjet, when the union took down the ship
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Re: Vote results.

Post by altiplano »

SABENA? Taken down by the Pilots' union?
The reasons for SABENA's bankruptcy are numerous. One of the direct causes was Swissair not living up to its contractual obligations and failing to inject necessary funds into the company. This was because at the time Swissair was having its own financial problems. During the so-called "Hotel agreement", signed on July 17, 2001, Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt met with Swissair boss Mario Corti, who agreed to inject €258 million into Sabena. Mr Corti had made a terrible mistake as the sum was never paid, due to Swissair's own financial problems. The purchase of 34 new Airbus A320 family aircraft, imposed under Swissair's management, was a burden Sabena could not cope with.

After the bankruptcy, a parliamentary commission in Belgium was established to investigate the demise of the airline. The Belgian politicians got a part of the blame; Rik Daems, who, at the time, was Minister of Public Enterprises and Participations, Telecommunication and Middle Classes, received most criticism due to his lack of effort. Swissair itself went bankrupt in October of that year.
Looks like it's mismanagement, poor decisions, and bad deals done between CEOs and politicians that brought it to the precipice...

Not to mention the Bankruptcy was in NOVEMBER 2001. Wasn't there something else that came just before that, that decimated our industry?
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Eric Janson »

altiplano wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 6:39 am SABENA? Taken down by the Pilots' union?
The reasons for SABENA's bankruptcy are numerous. One of the direct causes was Swissair not living up to its contractual obligations and failing to inject necessary funds into the company. This was because at the time Swissair was having its own financial problems. During the so-called "Hotel agreement", signed on July 17, 2001, Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt met with Swissair boss Mario Corti, who agreed to inject €258 million into Sabena. Mr Corti had made a terrible mistake as the sum was never paid, due to Swissair's own financial problems. The purchase of 34 new Airbus A320 family aircraft, imposed under Swissair's management, was a burden Sabena could not cope with.

After the bankruptcy, a parliamentary commission in Belgium was established to investigate the demise of the airline. The Belgian politicians got a part of the blame; Rik Daems, who, at the time, was Minister of Public Enterprises and Participations, Telecommunication and Middle Classes, received most criticism due to his lack of effort. Swissair itself went bankrupt in October of that year.
Looks like it's mismanagement, poor decisions, and bad deals done between CEOs and politicians that brought it to the precipice...

Not to mention the Bankruptcy was in NOVEMBER 2001. Wasn't there something else that came just before that, that decimated our industry?
I'm not denying that the Airline was close to bankruptcy.

There was a rescue plan on the table - the Pilots did go on strike. This was the final straw.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1528973.stm

The Pilots Union guys are blacklisted in Belgium for a reason.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by altiplano »

From your link:
The pilots have offered to reduce their working hours to help cut costs and avoid forced redundancies.

"They are losing money because there is very bad management" said Leo D'Hondt, Director of the Belgian Cockpit Association.

"We are flying today with aircraft, long-haul at least, which are almost 100% filled with passengers and even then they struggle to survive so there is something basically wrong," he said.
24 hour walkout..

Seeking an alternative to avoid layoffs by reducing individual block hours...

Sounds like exactly the kind of guys I would want to be working with... looking out for one another vs. every man for himself...

Here's an article about the bankruptcy... seems nobody is blaming the pilot union..
Sabena blamed its demise partly on the collapse of co-owner Swissair, which failed to come through with a promised injection of $123m (£84m) in fresh capital.

Swissair has had its fair share of financial problems and had to be bailed out by the Swiss government.

The Belgian government stepped in to provide emergency finance for Sabena last month but aid was curtailed by European Commission rules on state aid.

Sabena was already in distress before September 11, burdened by high labour costs, escalating debts and a chronic inability to make a profit.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguar ... mandtravel
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Re: Vote results.

Post by confusedalot »

Small potatoes compared to the likes of Swissair and Sabena, but still.....

Yes, 9/11 had a whole lot to do with airline troubles, even the Americans bailed out their operators.

The Canadian aviation picture could have been slightly different if things went a different way.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-30 ... y-1.263968
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Fanblade »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:11 am
Fanblade wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 12:46 am
When peddling BS you never make it that obvious. When someone digs into the claim, at a minimum, a plausibly contorted rationalized explanation is required. It’s almost an art at AC.

The WJ Claim looks like amature hour.
Agreed, the number on its face looks one-sided. Then again, WestJet management will be aware that they are subject to strict regulatory requirements regarding timely disclosure (for example, on a company-owned but publicly accessible website) of material information, which the above arguably is. I'm very confident that somebody, likely in WestJet's corporate finance group, will have developed a model analyzing the cost of the ALPA proposals and supporting a build-up to the $1.274Bn 5-year impact quoted above.

Whether the assumptions underlying that analysis are appropriate is of course debatable, but there will at a minimum be something resembling a defensible rationale in place.
The strict regulatory requirements do not apply to internal communications. It is limited to “investor relations” initiatives. I can’t count the times in the past that AC told its employees one thing ( yes it was open to public consumption) and then told investors exactly the opposite.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Eric Janson »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 6:01 am From your link:
The pilots have offered to reduce their working hours to help cut costs and avoid forced redundancies.

"They are losing money because there is very bad management" said Leo D'Hondt, Director of the Belgian Cockpit Association.

"We are flying today with aircraft, long-haul at least, which are almost 100% filled with passengers and even then they struggle to survive so there is something basically wrong," he said.
24 hour walkout..

Seeking an alternative to avoid layoffs by reducing individual block hours...

Sounds like exactly the kind of guys I would want to be working with... looking out for one another vs. every man for himself...

Here's an article about the bankruptcy... seems nobody is blaming the pilot union..
Sabena blamed its demise partly on the collapse of co-owner Swissair, which failed to come through with a promised injection of $123m (£84m) in fresh capital.

Swissair has had its fair share of financial problems and had to be bailed out by the Swiss government.

The Belgian government stepped in to provide emergency finance for Sabena last month but aid was curtailed by European Commission rules on state aid.

Sabena was already in distress before September 11, burdened by high labour costs, escalating debts and a chronic inability to make a profit.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguar ... mandtravel
I've flown/fly with a lot of ex Sabena Pilots - I have yet to hear a single good word about the actions of their Pilot's Union representatives.

I'll bet with hindsight things would have played out very differently.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by GRK2 »

Hi Eric,

Some of us would maybe like to hear what those pilots had to say. I also fly with a number of those ex Sabena pilots and although they are still a little bitter at the Belgian government of that time, they still have pretty strong feelings that the union did what it could and they VOTED for the action to proceed...

On the ALPA and WS pilots subject, the fall from grace of the now ex CEO was easy to watch (and forecast) from outside of the company. My WS pilot friends and relatives were starting to feel the heat some time ago. I have been through the airline failure mill in Canada before, and while a few fellow pilots from that time STILL blame ALPA, (they never thought the company would ever fail...they had 100% faith in the bosses BS) No pilot's union ever bankrupted any Canadian airline.

The need to keep a level playing field between management and pilots is what should be driving these negotiations. I hope that the results of the CBA for WS stabilises the industry for a while as it seems that it's needed. Time to stop the race to the bottom at the expense of all pilots.

GRK
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Re: Vote results.

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Fanblade wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 9:20 am
YYZSaabGuy wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:11 am
Fanblade wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 12:46 am
When peddling BS you never make it that obvious. When someone digs into the claim, at a minimum, a plausibly contorted rationalized explanation is required. It’s almost an art at AC.

The WJ Claim looks like amature hour.
Agreed, the number on its face looks one-sided. Then again, WestJet management will be aware that they are subject to strict regulatory requirements regarding timely disclosure (for example, on a company-owned but publicly accessible website) of material information, which the above arguably is. I'm very confident that somebody, likely in WestJet's corporate finance group, will have developed a model analyzing the cost of the ALPA proposals and supporting a build-up to the $1.274Bn 5-year impact quoted above.

Whether the assumptions underlying that analysis are appropriate is of course debatable, but there will at a minimum be something resembling a defensible rationale in place.
The strict regulatory requirements do not apply to internal communications. It is limited to “investor relations” initiatives. I can’t count the times in the past that AC told its employees one thing ( yes it was open to public consumption) and then told investors exactly the opposite.
Fine, but that's not what we're discussing here. In this case, WestJet disclosed what is arguably material information on a publicly-accessible website, disseminating it broadly and making it widely available to everybody at the same time. That is the point of the regulatory regime: no one gains a benefit by receiving a "tip" of inside information. My point above was that the WestJet disclosure would undoubtedly have some analysis behind it and would be defensible.

But to address your comment: regulatory standards around continuous disclosure obligations of listed companies do not differentiate between "internal" and "external" communications; they govern the disclosure of material non-public information, period. Including to employees. I would be very surprised to see a publicly-listed company, including Air Canada, disclosing material information internally which was at variance to what it disclosed publicly. http://www.osc.gov.on.ca/en/SecuritiesL ... 51-201.jsp. I'm not saying it's never happened, but it certainly would not be the norm, and if the regulators caught wind of it, you can bet AC's General Counsel would very quickly be invited to discuss the matter.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Fanblade »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Fri May 18, 2018 6:28 am
Fanblade wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 9:20 am
YYZSaabGuy wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:11 am
Agreed, the number on its face looks one-sided. Then again, WestJet management will be aware that they are subject to strict regulatory requirements regarding timely disclosure (for example, on a company-owned but publicly accessible website) of material information, which the above arguably is. I'm very confident that somebody, likely in WestJet's corporate finance group, will have developed a model analyzing the cost of the ALPA proposals and supporting a build-up to the $1.274Bn 5-year impact quoted above.

Whether the assumptions underlying that analysis are appropriate is of course debatable, but there will at a minimum be something resembling a defensible rationale in place.
The strict regulatory requirements do not apply to internal communications. It is limited to “investor relations” initiatives. I can’t count the times in the past that AC told its employees one thing ( yes it was open to public consumption) and then told investors exactly the opposite.
Fine, but that's not what we're discussing here. In this case, WestJet disclosed what is arguably material information on a publicly-accessible website, disseminating it broadly and making it widely available to everybody at the same time. That is the point of the regulatory regime: no one gains a benefit by receiving a "tip" of inside information. My point above was that the WestJet disclosure would undoubtedly have some analysis behind it and would be defensible.

But to address your comment: regulatory standards around continuous disclosure obligations of listed companies do not differentiate between "internal" and "external" communications; they govern the disclosure of material non-public information, period. Including to employees. I would be very surprised to see a publicly-listed company, including Air Canada, disclosing material information internally which was at variance to what it disclosed publicly. http://www.osc.gov.on.ca/en/SecuritiesL ... 51-201.jsp. I'm not saying it's never happened, but it certainly would not be the norm, and if the regulators caught wind of it, you can bet AC's General Counsel would very quickly be invited to discuss the matter.
Look I am no lawyer. But I have been through many many contract negotiations. There must be a grey area because with the stuff I have have heard from employers over the years, when negotiations start......my ear plugs go in because BS becomes the norm.

Perhaps it’s well crafted BS as to not cross a legal line. I don’t know.

What Westjet produced was a forward outlook. All forward outlooks come with legal caveats. Aforward outlook is no more than a guess made on assumptions. What assumptions were used? An assumption of $300 oil for instance could make the outlook look bleak. It would be complete truth based on that assumption. Yet the assumption is not realistic.

I will stick with my initial comment. The WJ claim looks over the top. To be believable it needs to be close ( sort of close) to be accepted as possible reality. The claim is too far and as a result looks amateurish.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by atphat »

Please stop making sense. It does not fit WJ’s management or the 9%’s narrative.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Fanblade wrote: Fri May 18, 2018 7:40 pm
What Westjet produced was a forward outlook. All forward outlooks come with legal caveats. Aforward outlook is no more than a guess made on assumptions. What assumptions were used? An assumption of $300 oil for instance could make the outlook look bleak. It would be complete truth based on that assumption. Yet the assumption is not realistic.
I can't disagree with that.
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Re: Vote results.

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Re: Vote results.

Post by Eric Janson »

GRK2 wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 2:42 pm Hi Eric,

Some of us would maybe like to hear what those pilots had to say. I also fly with a number of those ex Sabena pilots and although they are still a little bitter at the Belgian government of that time, they still have pretty strong feelings that the union did what it could and they VOTED for the action to proceed...

On the ALPA and WS pilots subject, the fall from grace of the now ex CEO was easy to watch (and forecast) from outside of the company. My WS pilot friends and relatives were starting to feel the heat some time ago. I have been through the airline failure mill in Canada before, and while a few fellow pilots from that time STILL blame ALPA, (they never thought the company would ever fail...they had 100% faith in the bosses BS) No pilot's union ever bankrupted any Canadian airline.

The need to keep a level playing field between management and pilots is what should be driving these negotiations. I hope that the results of the CBA for WS stabilises the industry for a while as it seems that it's needed. Time to stop the race to the bottom at the expense of all pilots.

GRK
Pilot Union Representatives being blacklisted in their home country is unique - never heard of this happening anywhere else.

There must be a reason for this - maybe you can ask your ex Sabena colleagues.

This destroyed a lot of careers - there are some videos on Youtube where they look at what happened to a selection of former Sabena employees. Very sad to watch.

Out of the 6 companies I've worked for - only one where leaving was 100% my choice.

Agree with your last paragraph - but I'm still not seeing any improvement Globally in T & C's for Pilots. Things are still going downhill.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by Bede »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work.
I hate to admit it but Weedpro called it.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by The Tenth Man »

Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:11 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work.
I hate to admit it but Weedpro called it.
Hmm, not a particularly tough call to make I should think. Good on him, just the same. Perhap's he's right on the WPDL too. What say you, Bede?
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Re: Vote results.

Post by FL410AV8R »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:34 pm
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:11 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work.
I hate to admit it but Weedpro called it.
Hmm, not a particularly tough call to make I should think. Good on him, just the same. Perhap's he's right on the WPDL too. What say you, Bede?
Perhaps he should refrain from holding full-blown self-congratulatory conversations with himself.
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Re: Vote results.

Post by mbav8r »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:34 pm
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:11 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work.
I hate to admit it but Weedpro called it.
Hmm, not a particularly tough call to make I should think. Good on him, just the same. Perhap's he's right on the WPDL too. What say you, Bede?
Get help
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