Navajo lands on the street in yyc

[Rockie]

Maybe you should think about making libellous statements on a public forum or do you think you are somehow special and are free to trash people at your own whim?

Blah, blah, blah

Cue the sound of the air raid siren....

[C.W.E.]

Rockie you should read the rules of posting on this forum.

What you have said is untrue and it is trashing my career record and I am getting tired of it.

I have no idea of who you are but I post under my real name.

Bla, bla, bla does not change the fact you are wrong, thus it is libel.

[telex]

Rockie you should read the rules of posting on this forum.

What you have said is untrue and it is trashing my career record and I am getting tired of it.

I have no idea of who you are but I post under my real name.

Bla, bla, bla does not change the fact you are wrong.

Dad,

Do you smell burning toast today?

You seem a bit more off than usual.

[goingnowherefast]

Still waiting for CWE to reply to my post. He seems more interested in petty bickering than backing up his opinions.

The TSB investigates more than just the immediate facts. They ask why, and then ask why again and again and again.

They look at why they didn't take enough gas. Well they thought they had enough. Well why did they think that? The pilot before them said there was lots remaining. Well why did they trust him? Because thats how its been for years, and the gauges looked about right. Why did the gauges lie and why is company culture so lax about fuel? Gauges lied because a float was half sunk. Company culture was like this because that's what the old boss taught everybody. Well now we have one finding as to cause, not following the company fuel policy. Now why was the float half sunk? There was a pin hole in the top. Why was there a hole in the float? Better go through all the tech logs and find out that the sender was replaced 12 months ago. Did the hole develop recently or manufacturing defect?

We've gone from "pilots ran out of gas, they're liable for millions, pull their license" to a part defect and possibly an AD for a certain brand of fuel sender. This is just demonstrating the why path that lead to the results, there's also the why's that don't lead anywhere.

Every time you ask why it takes time to investigate. You don't go through a year of maintenance paperwork in 3 hours. Did the fuel gauge lie because the gauge sucked, resistance problem in old wires, which sender was it? Takes time to rip the plane apart and investigate every component.

Or why did that fuel leak develop. Or why did automotive diesel get into the tanks. Could ask why a million times for every senario.

[digits_]

Actually you are correct, you guys may not think much of us but we have enough self worth that we don't hide behind made up names Rockie and AuxBatOn.

You are also at the end of your career/retired, so you don't have to be afraid of evil ops managers or chief pilots or other powers that be to try and sabotage your career because they disagree with something you posted on AvCanada.

There are some interesting personalities out there. An extra layer of privacy between them and "us" is a good thing.

[cncpc]

Oy, what about the light on the fuel pump switch thing?

[C.W.E.]

by goingnowherefast » Mon May 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Still waiting for CWE to reply to my post. He seems more interested in petty bickering than backing up his opinions.

O.K. here is a reply.

goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 5:20 am
The TSB investigates more than just the immediate facts. They ask why, and then ask why again and again and again.

They do?

Give us some examples.

They look at why they didn't take enough gas. Well they thought they had enough. Well why did they think that? The pilot before them said there was lots remaining. Well why did they trust him? Because thats how its been for years, and the gauges looked about right.

That information would be available in the first interview.

Why did the gauges lie and why is company culture so lax about fuel? Gauges lied because a float was half sunk. Company culture was like this because that's what the old boss taught everybody. Well now we have one finding as to cause, not following the company fuel policy. Now why was the float half sunk? There was a pin hole in the top. Why was there a hole in the float? Better go through all the tech logs and find out that the sender was replaced 12 months ago. Did the hole develop recently or manufacturing defect?

And who is responsible to fix such company culture?

We've gone from "pilots ran out of gas, they're liable for millions, pull their license" to a part defect and possibly an AD for a certain brand of fuel sender. This is just demonstrating the why path that lead to the results, there's also the why's that don't lead anywhere.

Sure, there are so few Navajo's flying and they are such new aircraft that we just have not had time to get to know them yet.

Every time you ask why it takes time to investigate. You don't go through a year of maintenance paperwork in 3 hours. Did the fuel gauge lie because the gauge sucked, resistance problem in old wires, which sender was it? Takes time to rip the plane apart and investigate every component.

Am I to believe that there are that many pilots flying for these companies that no one wrote up a report that there was one or more faulty fuel gauges they just guess at how much fuel they have before flying?

Or why did that fuel leak develop.

A fuel leak will be visible as soon as they look at the airplane.

Or why did automotive diesel get into the tanks.

That also will be evident on the first inspection.

Could ask why a million times for every senario.

Don't give them more ideas.

[C.W.E.]

You are also at the end of your career/retired, so you don't have to be afraid of evil ops managers or chief pilots or other powers that be to try and sabotage your career because they disagree with something you posted on AvCanada.

So if you work for Aircanada for instance you can be penalised for posting on Avcanada?

[North Shore]

goingnowhere, CWE, Rockie, and telex.... enough with the bickering, please. On topic, or hold your tongues.

[goingnowherefast]

Oy, what about the light on the fuel pump switch thing?

If it's the light I'm thinking of, it will illuminate when the fuel pressure on the outlet side of the primary electric fuel pumps drops below a certain threshold. There are really only 4 things that will set it off. No fuel, vapour lock, pump failure or the pump turned off. It is actually the first pump in a series of 3 separate pumps per side, so no other combination of fuel pumps will cause the light to extinguish.

[JL]

TSB report

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 8w0054.asp

[pelmet]

The TSB?

They take forever to release any findings but maybe eventually they will share it with the public.

Looks like they are getting quicker. That being said, an analysis and Probable Cause(which the NTSB is mandated by law to provide) would be nice.

[telex]

So ran the outboards dry and didn’t switch to mains?

[anofly]

no new causes of aircraft crashes this year... someone else said that once...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 289&akey=1

i think this (and every other navajo accident in the ntsb database) should be requred reading for every navajo driver....

" Red fuel boost pump warning lights, mounted in the annunciator panel, provided a visual indication of an inoperative fuel boost pump"

would a navajo driver please tell me what makes the red light come on? low pressure? low flow? or electrical failure?
The light comes on when fuel boost pressure is less than 3 psi, so a failure of supply or pump failure will get the light on. There have now been two Navajo crashes in a few short years where folks failed to realize draining the aux tanks “caused” the fuel boost pump failure lamp to come on, and did not attempt to restore fuel flow by switching to an onboard tank that had fuel in it,,,,

from a navajo ground school

During initial checks fuel is turned off so at to check cross feed. Once fuel is turn off a few moments later the FUEL BOOST INOP annunciator will illuminate indicating no flow to the pump. Once fuel is restored the annunciator will extinguish. 
This annunciator will illuminate when a tank is run dry. Quickly switch to full tank and activate emergency boost pump to prevent engine surging. (3-5 seconds after lamp before engine is starved for fuel at cruise power)

[trey kule]

So ran the outboards dry and didn’t switch to mains?

Yep. Simple as that.



I am gobsmacked that this became such an SMS issue, with corrective action.
Fire the Capt....9500 hrs and can’t manage the fuel in a ho...!

Then when they hire anew one actually look for qualified not cheap.
And do some proper training. Odd that The TSB did not look into that, or at least did not mention it...I guess the paperwork must all have been in order.

[C.W.E.]

When I first read about this accident I thought that they had ran out of fuel due to departing with insufficient fuel for the flight.

Seems I was wrong.

[RatherBeFlying]

Some chief pilot or consultant wrote a SOP into the Ops Manual that omitted switching to the inner tanks from the descent checklist - as specified in the manufacturer flight manual.

The Transport Canada folks in charge of approving Ops Manuals didn't notice.

Unfortunately the pilots followed the faulty SOP and were short of time to troubleshoot.

The SOP was an accident waiting to happen.

[C.W.E.]

Some chief pilot or consultant wrote a SOP into the Ops Manual that omitted switching to the inner tanks from the descent checklist - as specified in the manufacturer flight manual.

The Transport Canada folks in charge of approving Ops Manuals didn't notice.

So that relieves the pilots from the responsibility of knowing how to properly operate the airplane?

[PilotDAR]

So that relieves the pilots from the responsibility of knowing how to properly operate the airplane?

+1.

Operate the aircraft in accordance with the flight manual, it (and any supplements) were developed by the design approval holder, and approved by the certification authorities.

[J31]

Some chief pilot or consultant wrote a SOP into the Ops Manual that omitted switching to the inner tanks from the descent checklist - as specified in the manufacturer flight manual.

The Transport Canada folks in charge of approving Ops Manuals didn't notice.

Unfortunately the pilots followed the faulty SOP and were short of time to troubleshoot.

The SOP was an accident waiting to happen.

Surely you jest!

One of the cornerstone drills that one is taught in primary flight training is to check the fuel with an engine failure. Especially when you have more than one fuel tank to feed from.