LegoMan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:54 am
Swoop guys finishing their course this week are not going anywhere. Management has already told them they are staying. Apparently they got the go ahead from their lawyers to keep the current pilots hired. They will most likely have to join the union.
I agree most likely they will stay but has nothing to do with their lawyers. This is out of all of our hands now anyways. Lawyers or not. They may stay hired at swoop but in the end may be doing another course maybe not. June 15th. Anything else being promised is just not true. That’s from the arbitration coming.
They may very well lose their left seats also. We shall see. Again lawyers have no say in this either side.
I don’t think you understand Legoman that we Westjet pilots already have won the flying for swoop that part is done. So management is lying to them to make false promises like that. Swoop will have no choice but to join Alpa at the bottom of our list. That’s been decided and agreed upon already.
WhatThe? wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 1:23 pm
Holy shit the Captain rates are equal to the RP positions at AC....
Really?! Please do tell which year RP, cause the first 4 years are under 80.
RPs not on flat pay make more than Swoop Captains.
Current RP rates after 4 are roughly $105-130/hr + about $7 or $8/hr overseas premium. Grandfathered RPs, either position or formula, make more than that.
LegoMan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:54 am
Swoop guys finishing their course this week are not going anywhere. Management has already told them they are staying. Apparently they got the go ahead from their lawyers to keep the current pilots hired. They will most likely have to join the union.
I agree most likely they will stay but has nothing to do with their lawyers. This is out of all of our hands now anyways. Lawyers or not. They may stay hired at swoop but in the end may be doing another course maybe not. June 15th. Anything else being promised is just not true. That’s from the arbitration coming.
They may very well lose their left seats also. We shall see. Again lawyers have no say in this either side.
I don’t think you understand Legoman that we Westjet pilots already have won the flying for swoop that part is done. So management is lying to them to make false promises like that. Swoop will have no choice but to join Alpa at the bottom of our list. That’s been decided and agreed upon already.
I'd expect that the swoop guys will end up on the bottom and left seat guys will have to go right seat. I also think the left seat guys will just leave with a mint 737 type rating and plenty of jet time under their belt already.
The real question is: why would any of the current Swoop pilots want to stay now? There are only a handful of them and you know that the list of names is already widely circulating amongst the 1500+ pilots at WestJet & Encore. These pilots will not be able to remain anonymous and that most certainly will not make for a very enjoyable or rewarding work environment. Would anyone really want to make a career out of a job where every single co-worker despises you and looks at you with disdain? This is certainly not something that will simply blow over after a few months.
Make no mistake: WJ is a big company, but it is not so big that these guys will be able to fade into obscurity - ever. Not even in the slightest. There is significant bitterness over this situation and these names will be posted all over the pilot list and talked about in internal conversations for years to come.
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
GRK2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
GRK2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
Cheers,
GRK
Do the PPC. Submit the form (new type endorsement). Revised sticker shows up.
Whats the difference between the Swoop pilots being OTS and the Encore pilots being OTS when Encore started? Encore also had the lowest Q400 wages in the country, but I don't remember if there was a big outcry from the mainline pilot group like there was for swoop.
'97 Tercel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:55 pm
So no 737 flown scheds were taken over by the Q400 ?
737 scheds were most certainly usurped by Encore. Passengers expect more frequency which the Q400 is great at providing. Once the '37's were relieved of the "milk runs" they were free to be placed on other more profitable routes. You will never meet a westjet pilot who does not apologize for the conditions at Encore. WestJet pilots were sold the Encore idea by management who promised them good working conditions and pay. They watched with horror as this bottom feeding regional was created with many feeling a good degree of guilt for having played a part in it's creation. With the advent of Swoop, the pilot group was smart enough not be fooled twice.
'97 Tercel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:55 pm
So no 737 flown scheds were taken over by the Q400 ?
737 scheds were most certainly usurped by Encore. Passengers expect more frequency which the Q400 is great at providing. Once the '37's were relieved of the "milk runs" they were free to be placed on other more profitable routes. You will never meet a westjet pilot who does not apologize for the conditions at Encore. WestJet pilots were sold the Encore idea by management who promised them good working conditions and pay. They watched with horror as this bottom feeding regional was created with many feeling a good degree of guilt for having played a part in it's creation. With the advent of Swoop, the pilot group was smart enough not be fooled twice.
To be clear I support the westjet pilots fully. I think you’re moving on the correct path for sure. I just wanted to hear what your thoughts about Encore vs Swoop. I appreciate the well articulated responses. I’m not out to stir the pot or troll this thread. I just thought it was ironic that some pilots here are quick to want to black list swoop pilots but support the pilots at encore when, to me as an outsider, it seemed both pilot groups did the same thing.
justwork wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:56 pm
To be clear I support the westjet pilots fully. I think you’re moving on the correct path for sure. I just wanted to hear what your thoughts about Encore vs Swoop. I appreciate the well articulated responses. I’m not out to stir the pot or troll this thread. I just thought it was ironic that some pilots here are quick to want to black list swoop pilots but support the pilots at encore when, to me as an outsider, it seemed both pilot groups did the same thing.
Anyway, keep up the good fight.
Sure, why not.
We had trust in our management when Encore was started. It was the last time we trusted our management as they screwed us. We were asked to approve Encore, with a vote, based on the promise we would have a say in pay and working conditions after the vote. That didn't happen. We were mad about that lie.
Encore uses Dash 8-400's. Not 737 NG's. Different type, different routes.
Swoop is a direct transfer of our planes to a new paint job at slightly more than half the wages and taking over the same routes we fly now. There was no consultation and there was no vote.
If you can't see that difference, it is because you are being willfully blind.
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justwork wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:55 pm
Whats the difference between the Swoop pilots being OTS and the Encore pilots being OTS when Encore started? Encore also had the lowest Q400 wages in the country, but I don't remember if there was a big outcry from the mainline pilot group like there was for swoop.
IMHO the massive difference between the time when Encore was created and now when the abomination that is Swoop was envisioned is the ability (backed by ALPA) and willingness of the employee representatives to disagree vehemently and publicly with the corporation. Under the previous regime the primary stated goal was to "align the needs of the employees with those of the company", it sounds benign, but there is the strong undercurrent that if it is "good" for the company then despite any casualties incurred along the way it will be seen to be "good" for the employees. There was no public disagreement allowed.
To this day there are still ex-WJPA reps promoting a belief in Swoop and the corporate vision despite the contrary opinion of the vast majority of WestJet pilots. This among many other things it why ALPA is on the property now.
GRK2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
You get the type rating after the sim ride.
Sounds odd... What if a Q400 pilot moved to the 73? Wouldn't some sort of line training be required to validate the sim training? It used to be a useless PPC without any line training experience to back up the sim training.
GRK2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
You get the type rating after the sim ride.
Sounds odd... What if a Q400 pilot moved to the 73? Wouldn't some sort of line training be required to validate the sim training? It used to be a useless PPC without any line training experience to back up the sim training.
Yeah. That's a different type though... you'd need sim training, get a type rating, and you'd need line training.
GRK2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 am
New 737 endorsement? If I recall it's not complete without Line Training. So if it's just a sim ride, it's not worth much. Feel free to correct me if my info is out of date.
You get the type rating after the sim ride.
Sounds odd... What if a Q400 pilot moved to the 73? Wouldn't some sort of line training be required to validate the sim training? It used to be a useless PPC without any line training experience to back up the sim training.
That's still the case - a Type Rating without time on Type is essentially useless as most companies want Recency (flown the actual aircraft within the last 6 months) and Hours on Type (500 hours is generally the minimum)
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Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
It depends if one is talking about legality or practicality. You don't need to do line training to "validate" a PPC as someone stated. Getting a job without relevant experience on type would be highly unlikely, as you say.
But surely the Swoop guys hired as DEC must have already had significant experience on type or similar type. And if they were coming from B74/75/76/77 etc their lack of 737 time would be irrelevant to most prospective employers. Yes, 500 hours is usually the minimum but all the contracts I've seen for 737 jobs in China, say, will quite happily accept any heavy Boeing or Airbus time. So yes, getting their PPC's renewed does give them an advantage moving on as most companies want your last flight or sim to be within the last six months. Sorry to disappoint the haters - anyone that was viable for Swoop will be just fine - in or out of Canada!
Personally I find the dark mutterings about "never forgetting" quite amusing. It takes far more energy to hold a grudge than to let it go, and only harms the person holding it.
Only losers hang on that tight to their grievances. But there's a surprising number of the type wandering around Canadian airports, actually.
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I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
complexintentions wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:21 am
It depends if one is talking about legality or practicality. You don't need to do line training to "validate" a PPC as someone stated. Getting a job without relevant experience on type would be highly unlikely, as you say.
But surely the Swoop guys hired as DEC must have already had significant experience on type or similar type. And if they were coming from B74/75/76/77 etc their lack of 737 time would be irrelevant to most prospective employers. Yes, 500 hours is usually the minimum but all the contracts I've seen for 737 jobs in China, say, will quite happily accept any heavy Boeing or Airbus time. So yes, getting their PPC's renewed does give them an advantage moving on as most companies want your last flight or sim to be within the last six months. Sorry to disappoint the haters - anyone that was viable for Swoop will be just fine - in or out of Canada!
Personally I find the dark mutterings about "never forgetting" quite amusing. It takes far more energy to hold a grudge than to let it go, and only harms the person holding it.
Only losers hang on that tight to their grievances. But there's a surprising number of the type wandering around Canadian airports, actually.
complexintentions wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:21 am
Personally I find the dark mutterings about "never forgetting" quite amusing. It takes far more energy to hold a grudge than to let it go, and only harms the person holding it.
Only losers hang on that tight to their grievances. But there's a surprising number of the type wandering around Canadian airports, actually.
Personal observation but if after years of hard work the company hires individuals who directly impede your career progression I doubt it would require much energy to hold a grudge. I also wouldn't call a solid 1/3 of WestJet/Encore pilots sore losers, they have every right to be pissed.
complexintentions wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:21 am
Personally I find the dark mutterings about "never forgetting" quite amusing. It takes far more energy to hold a grudge than to let it go, and only harms the person holding it.
Only losers hang on that tight to their grievances. But there's a surprising number of the type wandering around Canadian airports, actually.
Personal observation but if after years of hard work the company hires individuals who directly impede your career progression I doubt it would require much energy to hold a grudge. I also wouldn't call a solid 1/3 of WestJet/Encore pilots sore losers, they have every right to be pissed.
Exactly, the word betrayal comes to mind. WJ has a scope agreement with the pilots and broke that scope agreement to find cheaper labor. Although I do hope that the relationships with Swoop OTS hires aren’t hostile - this management team has a long way to go to rebuild trust with the pilot group.
WJ has a scope agreement with the pilots and broke that scope agreement to find cheaper labor
Surely if WJ broke a scope agreement during the statutory freeze period, ALPA would have filed an Unfair Labour Practice complaint. They did not.
Why not?
It’s too hot to hike out of the canyon here in Twin Falls right now, so please take advantage of this break in my jumping to craft your response(s). flyingsquirrelsuck[Edited. No need to 'out' people], points will be deducted for bad grammar, so run your post by your wife first.
