mbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
So, SR were scabs by taking over Jazz routes and undercutting the costs?
What does that make Jazz then when they took over mainlines CRJ fleet doing the same? Scabs?
The “They may not be on AvCanada are were completely unaware” argument is complete bullshit. I’ve had friends outside the industry and entirely disconnected ask me wtf is happening with this issue. Anyone IN the industry that claims ignorance is a liar. Regardless of what part of the globe they lived in when they applied.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
Direct entry 737 Captain positions at Sunwing wages at the most financial sound airline in Canada. Too good to be true? You know how the saying goes.
Tbaylx, do you still believe what management is telling you now? Same spots with better working conditions?
The big question is what would a reasonable person assume. That's the view point of the Arbitrator.
mbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
So, SR were scabs by taking over Jazz routes and undercutting the costs?
What does that make Jazz then when they took over mainlines CRJ fleet doing the same? Scabs?
Oh all history right? Nice to pick and choose
Was SR owned by Jazz? You can answer your own question.
I have yet to read a single cohesive argument from you.
Do you disagree with the labour minister?
Do you disagree that you understood the scope of this issue before taking the job?
Slow day for me which is why I’m all over this today.
Case of wine to anyone that counters my arguments with something substantive.
JJJ
As far as I'm aware the CIRB (or Labour Minister) didn't rule one way or another on common employer, it was Westet and ALPA under mediation that agreed to Westjet pilots flying Swoop aircraft and to go to arbitration. So nothing to disagree with the labour minister over.
I also fully understood your MEC's position that they thought the flying should belong to them, before taking the job. Westjet management didn't agree with that and were confident enough in their position to offer the jobs to the street, which IMHO makes it fair game to anyone that wishes to apply.
I'm not sure how you make a cohesive argument on an opinion, but thought i laid it out pretty clearly in the previous post. Anything but slow day here, but i'm happy to engage with someone who can articulate an opinion rationally.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
Direct entry 737 Captain positions at Sunwing wages at the most financial sound airline in Canada. Too good to be true? You know how the saying goes.
Tbaylx, do you still believe what management is telling you now? Same spots with better working conditions?
The big question is what would a reasonable person assume. That's the view point of the Arbitrator.
Management has made no such claim. None of the OTS guys expect anything other than the terms that they signed on for. Guess we'll see what comes of it in a couple weeks
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:51 pm
As far as I'm aware the CIRB (or Labour Minister) didn't rule one way or another on common employer, it was Westet and ALPA under mediation that agreed to Westjet pilots flying Swoop aircraft and to go to arbitration. So nothing to disagree with the labour minister over.
Not quite. When WestJet threaten to not only lockout the pilots but systematically shut down the airline, the Labour Minister jumped on a plane to YYC. She had a 20 min meeting with the MEC, then a 2hr meeting with our CEO. After which WestJet agreed to enter interest based arbitration set by ALPA's terms with the ALPA chosen arbitrator. Prior to that, WestJet drew the line at FOS arbitration under their terms with their chosen arbitrator. You can draw your own conclusions as to how that meeting went.
Dyna wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:44 pm
The “They may not be on AvCanada are were completely unaware” argument is complete bullshit. I’ve had friends outside the industry and entirely disconnected ask me wtf is happening with this issue. Anyone IN the industry that claims ignorance is a liar. Regardless of what part of the globe they lived in when they applied.
Get your head out. I flew in Asia, Africa and the sandpit for over 20 years. Most non canadians don't even know anything about air Canada let alone some small airline called WestJet.
No doubt your friends outside the industry only know because of the recent newspaper coverage.
Regardless, I'm done caring about this issue. It's fun never the less to sit back and watch you all eat each other alive fighting over scraps.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
Direct entry 737 Captain positions at Sunwing wages at the most financial sound airline in Canada. Too good to be true? You know how the saying goes.
Tbaylx, do you still believe what management is telling you now? Same spots with better working conditions?
The big question is what would a reasonable person assume. That's the view point of the Arbitrator.
Management has made no such claim. None of the OTS guys expect anything other than the terms that they signed on for. Guess we'll see what comes of it in a couple weeks
Thanks for the answer. But are they not stating your spot is frozen?
Dyna wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:44 pm
The “They may not be on AvCanada are were completely unaware” argument is complete bullshit. I’ve had friends outside the industry and entirely disconnected ask me wtf is happening with this issue. Anyone IN the industry that claims ignorance is a liar. Regardless of what part of the globe they lived in when they applied.
Get your head out. I flew in Asia, Africa and the sandpit for over 20 years. Most non canadians don't even know anything about air Canada let alone some small airline called WestJet.
No doubt your friends outside the industry only know because of the recent newspaper coverage.
Regardless, I'm done caring about this issue. It's fun never the less to sit back and watch you all eat each other alive fighting over scraps.
Burn baby burn.
So you plan to move 11 000km for a job without doing any research? Googling "Swoop pilot ad" and avcanada is a hit on the first page. Literally 2 mins of reading and you're up to speed. Buyer beware.
Tbaylx acknowledges there was an unresolved dispute for a claim on Swoop flying and the company's attempt to bypass a labour group was path clear of conscience into shiny (slightly used WestJet) pink jets - got it. At least you're being honest T.
Hey eyebrow737 - this is the guy whom you feel the need to champion. Sliding in the backdoor at a total compensation package less than what WestJet was paying over 20 years ago. Keep it up bro - I'm considering volunteering for your blacklist.
Well folks, I am at the very least entertained.
Tbaylx - thank you for providing a modicum of honesty. If this goes the way I think it will you can thank people like me for the raise you'll get before you even turn a wheel. Enjoy the popularity.
JJJ
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Last edited by jjj on Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
Direct entry 737 Captain positions at Sunwing wages at the most financial sound airline in Canada. Too good to be true? You know how the saying goes.
Tbaylx, do you still believe what management is telling you now? Same spots with better working conditions?
The big question is what would a reasonable person assume. That's the view point of the Arbitrator.
Management has made no such claim. None of the OTS guys expect anything other than the terms that they signed on for. Guess we'll see what comes of it in a couple weeks
Thanks for the answer. But are they not stating your spot is frozen?
Nope, the only thing they’ve said is that they won’t negotiate with one group at the expense of the other and that arbitration should be done in the next two weeks. No guarantees of any sort other than that.
jjj wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Tbaylx acknowledges there was an unresolved dispute for a claim on Swoop flying and the company's attempt to bypass a labour group was path clear of conscience into shiny (slightly used WestJet) pink jets - got it. At least you're being honest T.
Hey eyebrow737 - this is the guy whom you feel the need to champion. Sliding in the backdoor at a total compensation package less than what WestJet was paying over 20 years ago. Keep it up bro - I'm considering volunteering for your blacklist.
Well folks, I am at the very least entertained.
Tbaylx - thank you for providing a modicum of honesty. If this goes the way I think it will you can thank people like me for the raise you'll get before you even turn a wheel. Enjoy the popularity.
JJJ
If it does go that way then it’s certainly not what we expected when we took the job. Arbitration can go in unexpected directions for all involved. I’ll reserve comment until things are finalized
Since you're likely going to be around for awhile then let me acquaint you with the doublespeak that comes from the top.
"Nope, the only thing they’ve said is that they won’t negotiate with one group at the expense of the other..."
That is precisely what they have done at the expense of our First Officers. I guess they don't count as a group worth consideration.
Right now the company is going to bat more for people like you than the people that built this airline - it suits the agenda of attacking labour. Enjoy the fleeting feeling and count yourself lucky that ALPA is on the property. Again you have people like me to thank for that as well.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As a member in good standing with the Union you'll have access to the ALPA/WJA private forum. It is governed by strict terms of use and there isn't any anonymity. Plenty of good reading in there on the topic. Enjoy the reading.
Since you're likely going to be around for awhile then let me acquaint you with the doublespeak that comes from the top.
"Nope, the only thing they’ve said is that they won’t negotiate with one group at the expense of the other..."
That is precisely what they have done at the expense of our First Officers. I guess they don't count as a group worth consideration.
Right now the company is going to bat more for people like you than the people that built this airline - it suits the agenda of attacking labour. Enjoy the fleeting feeling and count yourself lucky that ALPA is on the property. Again you have people like me to thank for that as well.
JJJ
I have no bone in your fight with WestJet. I can only comment on what we've seen from Swoop management and they’ve gone out of their way to be open and forthcoming as well as answering endless emails from people despite having to deal with launching an airline and being involved in the negotiations.
I get where you guys are in your relationship with management at WestJet and I hope it gets better moving forward. Swoop leadership has been nothing but professional and open with us to date. I hope that continues as it grows, but obviously it can change over time. It used to be like that at WestJet at one point.
As a member in good standing with the Union you'll have access to the ALPA/WJA private forum. It is governed by strict terms of use and there isn't any anonymity. Plenty of good reading in there on the topic. Enjoy the reading.
Cheers.
JJJ
I’ve seen it already, I’m well aware of the emotions involved and differences in opinions.
You want harmony in the workplace - start with some acceptance of your role in this fiasco and drop the innocent bystander routine.
Don’t have a bone in this fight? You’re wrong.
Let’s get something clear bro - your management is my management. When you wrap your head around that concept you may gain some traction around the property.
You’ll soon get used to the same two speeches the Encore guys hear depending on the topic. When it’s time for profit share etc we are one big family that trades under a stock called WJA. When the company wants to compress employees - we’re a start up.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Westjet chose to offer it at Sunwing hourly rates, which wasn't acceptable to Westjet pilots. So it went to the street....
Really, would a union do that? Has a pilot union ever decided to give up flying the same aircraft and routes because the rates *offered* were too low?
??? If you mean accepting a lower pay for the same aircraft in the fleet, ACPA did for Rouge.
No, as in decline flying because wages offered were lower. ACPA did not give up Rouge flying because it was less. ACPA pilots fly rouge aircraft.
mbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pm
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
So, SR were scabs by taking over Jazz routes and undercutting the costs?
What does that make Jazz then when they took over mainlines CRJ fleet doing the same? Scabs?
Oh all history right? Nice to pick and choose
Just can’t leave this one particular comment be, the CRJs were ordered by Air Nova and taken from them by AC pilots who offered to fly them for less. They should’ve been “Jazz” RJs in the first place and yes it’s all in the past, our actions today will shape tomorrow, so perhaps we need to be accountable for today. tbaylx is willfully blind to his actions and his argument is weak, him and his ilk should have consequences for their actions.
tbaylx, the work was contractually obliged to WJ pilots, it wasn’t WJs to give away and the fact they were offering it to the street doesn’t make it ok. It’s a thief selling it to a morally bankrupt group who knew they were buying stolen goods, the fact it was out in the open doesn’t change it. Tell yourself whatever you want, you’re still a thief.
Enjoy the workplace environment I’m sure you’ll experience, probably not what you signed up for but you know, things change.
mbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:41 am
How do you feel about hypocrites?
Personally, I would add names of pilots who support swoop pilots to the blacklist, care to share your name eyebrow?
Also, only an idiot would not realize that doing the flying for a wholly owned subsidiary of WJ for 40% less salary would be contentious!
Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.
You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.
Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?
You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite! Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
It’s started already. Red pass and WestJet ID required or no jumpseat.
That's a steaming pile of bullshit.
How so?
Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.
How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.
Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.
You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.
Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?
You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Who’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite! Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
...so what? You’re supposed to post. It’s a forum. Literally how this whole thing works.
