WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[RidersRule]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

I don’t know who u work for but I decide who sits 6 inch’s behind me...not the CSA.

That’s a fact.

No Swoop in my jumpseat.

[DropTanks]

.

[Maritimer]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

This is just flat out not true at WJ. Captains have the final say, period.

[Fanblade]

Generally speaking a seniority system is not good for skilled workers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. It prevents them from moving and naturally going to higher paying jobs. Doctors and lawyers negotiate their own rates with firms which is predicated on their experience and needs of the firm if it be new graduates or seasoned lawyers. Even nurses do retain their years of service when they move to other hospitals, but not seniority which is used for schedule and vacation. If a hospital wants to hire new recruits or senior nurses with 8th year pay, it's up to their needs and budget. That may be a good compromise for pilots too. It may not be long when almost all airlines have to hire DECs. Ultimately pay and working conditions are determined by market forces, not unions.

Doctors and nurses don’t in general negotiate their wages individually. They both belong to professional associations which negotiate on thier behalf with provincial governments. Doctors associations negotiate billing rates. Nurses associations negotiate wages. The same associations control licensing and accreditation.

They basically belong to a professional union called a college. It’s a bunch of individuals negotiating as a collective to achieve a better overall result.

Yes some Doctors and Nurses are employed outside the public sector. But not many.

A college of professional pilots might actually be a good idea. Unfortunately professional associations need ledgislation to make it happen as they need control over licensing. The licensing forces collectivism. It forces people to do what they are instructed. Which in turn provides leverage at the bargaining table. Your kidding yourself if you think a Doctor or Nurse has much individual say within the public system.

Airlines will fight this legislation allowing pilots to become a college and licence themselves tooth and nail. I realize a college of pilots in Canada is currently being attempted. Unfortunately licensing is not at the forefront. Without licensing it will have no teeth. It can advocate but can not negotiate.

Another draw back is that very few professional associations are recognized outside thier boarder.

This is the trade off.

Individualism = autonomy. Autonomy = doing whatever is best for you personally.

Collectivism = loss of autonomy. Loss of autonomy = a group making decisions for the greater good.

ACPA’s attempt at autonomy = doing whatever is best for them at the expense of the greater good? = Failure.

For full discloses I am an ACPA pilot.

[atphat]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

As has already been posted you have no idea what you’re talking about. CA decision. Full stop.

[Rowdy]

No one sits in the jump unless I agree to it. Plain and simple.

'Sorry, we cannot accommodate today'

[jjj]

The internet is going to blow up.

You got lucky Tbaylx. You have to buy the beer until you retire.

JJJ

[Airbrake]

The internet is going to blow up.

You got lucky Tbaylx. You have to buy the beer until you retire.

JJJ

You mean until the arbitrator decides his fate he buys beer.
No one knows how the final situation will play out.

[countdown]

All of the this jump seat BS confirms one thing. The terms "Pilot" and "Professional" are not synonymous.

[jjj]

It's official,

Tbaylx gets to keep his job.

JJJ

[tbaylx]

The internet is going to blow up.

You got lucky Tbaylx. You have to buy the beer until you retire.

JJJ

Agreed, beer is on me, especially if it comes with a raise later.

[eyebrow737]

All of the this jump seat BS confirms one thing. The terms "Pilot" and "Professional" are not synonymous.

Silent applause. Especially amongst this circle jerk of WestJet and one lone Jazz pilots

[Maritimer]

The internet is going to blow up.

You got lucky Tbaylx. You have to buy the beer until you retire.

JJJ

Agreed, beer is on me, especially if it comes with a raise later.

It won’t be much, plus you’ll be at Swoop forever, unless the arbitrator feels you’re not necessary.

[tbaylx]

The internet is going to blow up.

You got lucky Tbaylx. You have to buy the beer until you retire.

JJJ

Agreed, beer is on me, especially if it comes with a raise later.

It won’t be much, plus you’ll be at Swoop forever, unless the arbitrator feels you’re not necessary.

There isn’t one of us that saw this as a road to mainline, nor is anyone I know interested in that road.
In the future if it ever opens up and someone actually wanted it, I’m sure it would be DoH much like encore in any case so there would be zero effect on anyone’s seniority.

[Rezy]

Swoop and WJ are now common employers. WJ Pilots will now place a bid for future Swoop positions. Current Swoop Pilots will be given a seniority number on the department list ( so they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon) and they will likely keep current positions, IMO.
Overall the big losers here are Encore Pilots - they will not be allowed to bid for Swoop positions. I highly doubt that any WJ FO will take a Swoop FO position, so Swoop will need more OTS hires for FOs soon but Encore Pilots will not be getting those spots. Keep in mind there are a good number of Encore pilots that would likely have the seniority to bid into a Swoop captain position (and meet the requirements) but they will not be allowed.
Looks like the beginning of the end for the one list.

[Lt Colombo]

Good evening guys,

I might be new here, i've been montoring a few threads for some time now and i'm certainly not new to this world you can tell by my nickname, anyway i just wanna point out a few things.

One of the things that i have learned is a pilot's enemy is a fellow pilot, sadely!

This whole Swoop noise thing is just a mascarade coz if i understood well some people want me to believe that a few fellow pilots applied for a decsent job then they deserve no futur in the industry

Comparing to other major players Swoop is offering decent conditions now that WJ pilots are forced to crew Swoop is another story you should go after their managment.

Guys prioritazation is paramount in our profession and i see none here, the real threats are not the fellow pilots that wanna make decent living but some greedy managment staffers that wanna scoop up everything for themselves.

Why don't you go after the express carriers that scoop millions a year in bonuses let alone their salaries while paying yellow coins paycheck to their drivers.

Why don't you go after players that are hiring maids with flying licenses to shine the cabins between flights.

Why don't you go after players that are segregating qualified PR ( permanent resident ) holders just because their name is Ahmad or Igor...

You are ok with all these red flags and trying to fix the fourth digit after the decimal

One last thing:

Swoop is gonna become such a major player that you guys gonna request jumpseats with them.

[CaptainHaddock]

Swoop and WJ are now common employers. WJ Pilots will now place a bid for future Swoop positions. Current Swoop Pilots will be given a seniority number on the department list ( so they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon) and they will likely keep current positions, IMO.
Overall the big losers here are Encore Pilots - they will not be allowed to bid for Swoop positions. I highly doubt that any WJ FO will take a Swoop FO position, so Swoop will need more OTS hires for FOs soon but Encore Pilots will not be getting those spots. Keep in mind there are a good number of Encore pilots that would likely have the seniority to bid into a Swoop captain position (and meet the requirements) but they will not be allowed.
Looks like the beginning of the end for the one list.

Ain’t that the truth, what a shaft. They are probably short right now at Encore. But decisions like this will just accelerate applications to AC, so they’ll be short anyways. WestJet pilots can bid over to Swoop-but with no idea what the WAWCON will end up being (if anything other than what’s posted). I’m pretty disappointed for sure.

[cloak]

...
A college of professional pilots might actually be a good idea. Unfortunately professional associations need ledgislation to make it happen as they need control over licensing. The licensing forces collectivism. It forces people to do what they are instructed. Which in turn provides leverage at the bargaining table. Your kidding yourself if you think a Doctor or Nurse has much individual say within the public system.

Airlines will fight this legislation allowing pilots to become a college and licence themselves tooth and nail. I realize a college of pilots in Canada is currently being attempted. Unfortunately licensing is not at the forefront. Without licensing it will have no teeth. It can advocate but can not negotiate.
...

Good points, college of pilots would be a great achievement.

[Eric Janson]

Swoop and WJ are now common employers. WJ Pilots will now place a bid for future Swoop positions. Current Swoop Pilots will be given a seniority number on the department list ( so they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon) and they will likely keep current positions, IMO.
Overall the big losers here are Encore Pilots - they will not be allowed to bid for Swoop positions. I highly doubt that any WJ FO will take a Swoop FO position, so Swoop will need more OTS hires for FOs soon but Encore Pilots will not be getting those spots. Keep in mind there are a good number of Encore pilots that would likely have the seniority to bid into a Swoop captain position (and meet the requirements) but they will not be allowed.
Looks like the beginning of the end for the one list.

I'm an outsider and don't understand all that is going on.

Is it correct that there will now be 3 different employee groups - WestJet/Encore/Swoop?

Having seen how nothing divides Pilots like seniority (just look at this Forum) - this looks like a classic divide and conquer strategy. Management wet dream!

All that's needed now is a separate list for 787 Pilots to make it a complete disaster imho.

Glad I'm not part of this.

[B757FO]

This wasn’t a win for swoop pilots.. go and read the interim order again it’s clear your here only until your fate is determined at a later date. You are redundant swoopsters never forget that as are we and that’s been proven time and time again. If you think the company will pay bypass pay to 1000 first officers to keep you in your seats you are sadly mistaken. The Company I am sure is banking on the fact no one will bid the 26 positions in yhm which they will. This equates to hundreds of thousands of dollars per pilot in bypass pay. You think they will keep you around for it? Your going to the right seat in three months and you guys know it. That part of the interim order including the words bypass pay sealed your fates right there. All a first officer has to do now is bid captain at swoop today and get a nice fat pay check in the years to come until all of you are gone out of those left seats.

Oh and btw the YEG base is all westjet Captains who I can’t wait for you guys to meet.

You may have budded in line to the party swoopsters but the bouncer is coming soon to move you back where you belong and now it’s legal where that’s probably gonna happen.

Thanks in advance for trying to be professional launching my airline in YHM. I’ll make sure that I’m professional when you are my first officer in six months.

[sstaurus]

As if the morale at Encore could go any lower... here it is

[B757FO]

Ya thats the real problem now. What the company has done to encore pilots. It’s fine for us to fight over 26 seats but your right... 100% right encore pilots must feel left behind. It’s hard to believe that we have come to this place in the road. All 100% avoidable.. all 100% westjet Corp driven. I hope the encore MEC gets some movement on allowing encore pilots to apply for those positions.

Someone posted here earlier that no one wins in this and that is true. But the losing party shouldn’t be encore it should be the swoop pilots hired out of seniority.

[cloak]

The positive thing is that between additional Swoop flying, the introduction of B787 and 2 or 3 class cabins, not to mention quite likely the new duty rules, it seems that there is going to be substantial opportunities for growth at WestJet group which is nice to see.

[Hangry]

As if the morale at Encore could go any lower... here it is

Yes Encore pilots are the biggest losers in all of this.

[Blue42]

All a first officer has to do now is bid captain at swoop today and get a nice fat pay check in the years to come until all of you are gone out of those left seats.

Oh and btw the YEG base is all westjet Captains who I can’t wait for you guys to meet.

You may have budded in line to the party swoopsters but the bouncer is coming soon to move you back where you belong and now it’s legal where that’s probably gonna happen.

Thanks in advance for trying to be professional launching my airline in YHM. I’ll make sure that I’m professional when you are my first officer in six months.

Incorrect! Anyone that bids the bypass positions must make themselves available for the next Capt course as well. There's no sitting and just collecting a paycheck.