Exce$$ive ground briefings

[badmash]

When I trained, I dictated what I would pay.

I don't want to talk about it with your clock running, thanks... I'm good.

Ground briefing is not a licensing requirement.

I had a student adopt this approach with me once. He was doing his instructor rating. I told him to find another instructor.

+1 , PGIs are a must before any 'D's in the PTR of a student. A new PPL student has to start from the basics - the flow of the flights, reading the weather, weight and balance , paperwork , walkaround, and so on....
I feel , something as little as 'What radio call to make where' discussed on the ground makes the students job easier in the air. The cockpit is not the place to introduce new items to learn.
Having said that, Briefings should be concise and not last for more than 5 minutes, the PGi last longer depending on the lesson. Now, 1 hour of ST & LEVEL on the Hobbs or the PGI doesnt add up.

[photofly]

You don't think that teaching the student reading the weather, weight and balance, paperwork, walk-around can wait until flight 2 or 3? Everything has to be done on the first flight?

[badmash]

You don't think that teaching the student reading the weather, weight and balance, paperwork, walk-around can wait until flight 2 or 3? Everything has to be done on the first flight?

Absolutely not ! Its better to have it spread out over multiple lessons . In my opinion briefing is - What are we doing, who will fly for what part, what does the student need to look for , navigation (practice area etc) and weather review. This is when the lesson has been taught in the PGI which lasts long or short depending on student preparation. Sometimes it can takes just 5-10 minutes or go on for 90 minutes for XC planning.

[tsulmer]

I completed my PPL in March 2018. I've been at 2 different schools here in Calgary and have had 6 different instructors, and they all charge only for the actual length of the brief. Most of the briefs were short 0.2 or 0.3. The xcountry was longer at 2.0. For most solos they charged 0.2 as a standard regardless of the fact that some of my solos had no pre or post brief and when they did, they were less than 0.1. So, if your friend is being charged 1.0 for every flight, find a new instructor or school!

[C-GOYR]

When it's a dual flight and the exercise is range and endurance and I ask you what is range, only to be told how far you can see...you no longer qualified for a .1. For solo flights I don't charge a briefing time for the time I spend with you prior. This time is spent on asking the student procedures, the flight test standards for the solo exercises to be flown, emergencies and radio calls etc.

I tend to ask questions that would have required you to read at least halfway through the chapter and if you are clueless as to the answer; I know where we stand.

As an instructor I often try to charge no more than a .1 at all times especially on a dual cross country. If you make the effort to come in when I'm in between flights, you pay nothing. A lot of students did this to prep for dual cross country and never got charged an instructor rate.

I was once a student and I understand the financial burden. I'm getting paid and building time on your dollar, the least I can do is not milk you...you also need beer money.

cheers.

[CpnCrunch]

If you use pilottraining.ca, it has all of the air exercises which you can use to save time on briefings.

[Schooner69A]

When I was in the military, we had the luxury of being able to have the students undergo mass briefings on such things as circuits, clearhood exercises, instrument work, navigation, formation, etc. Those were long briefings. Subsequent pre-flight briefings were exactly that: brief. The student was notified of the following day's lesson and was expected to read the material and be able to related the basics. If he couldn't, he was beat with a stick and the mission scrubbed.

Now, in the civilian world of flying instruction, I am aware that, by and large, such a luxury does not exist. However, if a student has been advised of the contents of the next mission and advised to read up on it - and does - then the pre-flight briefing can be shortened. However, if said student comes in unprepared and still wants to proceed, then the time for the pre-flight brief is what it is and the student should pony up and keep stumm…


The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."

[photofly]

The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."

I couldn’t agree more.

[digits_]

The fastest way to find out what the student knows is to toss them the chalk, take a seat, and say "brief me..."

I couldn’t agree more.

Are you guys still using chalk?

[Schooner69A]

"You guys still using chalk..."?

Kind of betrays my age, doesn't it? Bummer!
(;>0)

[trey kule]

Ok. From the posts, non of you posting here has every milked a student or caused death by briefing.

So who are these milkers of students? Who are these instructors who are instructing 80:hr ppls.

I would find it refreshing to read a post that says...” yeah, I milked my students for every penny I could. Flew 12 hours a day and slept in the cockpit when I should have been instructing...oh wait....not the last one as several instructors have come on this site and bragged how they fell asleep on a student, so I guess that does not count.

Refreshing, because it would at least be honest.

[digits_]

Ok. From the posts, non of you posting here has every milked a student or caused death by briefing.

So who are these milkers of students? Who are these instructors who are instructing 80:hr ppls.

I would find it refreshing to read a post that says...” yeah, I milked my students for every penny I could. Flew 12 hours a day and slept in the cockpit when I should have been instructing...oh wait....not the last one as several instructors have come on this site and bragged how they fell asleep on a student, so I guess that does not count.

Refreshing, because it would at least be honest.

Just because no "milker" has posted here, does not mean that all the other instructors are lying. Maybe the "milkers" are a bit ashamed and don't post in this topic? Or they are not aware they were milking and were mainly concerned about the student's progress/skill level.

[trey kule]

Now there is an interesting thought; Maybe the milkers do not know they are milking students!

I think I posted this before but in auditing some FAA flight schools, and the auditor sitting in on ground briefings and reading student surveys afterwards, it seems that when an auditor was in the briefing, more teaching aids were used, briefings were shorter (verified from records that this was accurate) and more to the point , and with fewer “war stories.”

Now , the sense I got was not that instructors were intentionally milking the students, but were just being lazy and unprofessional....all those notes they took for their instructor rating....pretty much ignored. Lesson plans? Made on the fly (excuse the pun). Right before the lesson , and not always after consulting the equivalent of a TC PTR.

In short, poor instructors really did not know they were poor instructors. Now relate that to Canada’s 80hr ppl, which is almost universally blamed on the student, and you have to wonder. TCs monitoring of flight test results does not accurately reflect the level of instruction, although I do understand in some cases they do look at an FTUs overall training times. Someone with TC would have to verify that claim.

Which brings us back to exactly what is excessive. Students and instructors might not agree on this, and I think there might be errors on both sides. From the instructor side however, a good honest CFI can tell if one of there instructors is briefing excessively as they can look at all their students and all their instructors...

I wonder how many CFIs do that. And how many FTUs have a Ops Q&A person.

[Squaretail]

Personally I have encountered only one instructor in all my time who I would say was knowingly milking his students both for flight and briefing time. Many instructors have been somewhat guilty of death by briefing, though a majority of those have been reluctant to charge for such time. If they charge at all. One must keep in mind that if instructors are going to “milk” students, it’s usually going to be on flight time, since that is where their log booking benefits. For the most part one must remember that instructors (and students) both want to get into the plane since flight time is always viewed as more desirable.

I will say that TC does not encourage efficiency when it comes to ground time, and there is a tendency of class ones to prioritize the “ don’t miss anything” method of briefing to the expense of all other concerns. This results in wretched inefficiencies in the process, which are often deemed acceptable.

That said, the 80 hour ppls blame is still the burden of the students population by large. I don’t absolve schools and instructors entirely, but the fact is the forces that drive how flight training is conducted result in what we have. Students are attracted to bigger and busier airports. They are attracted to bigger schools, and frequently ones that are geared for mass production of pilots, “airline style”. The latter of which is frequently a poor fit for the recreationally minded pilot. RPPs for example, get treated the same as a PPL since schools don’t cater to that need. All of this leads to great inefficiency in the conduct of initial training.

Lastly, and bizarrely I have seen many students stick with training they know is bad, and that they are unhappy with, for convenience, or more often because even though they don’t feel they are getting good instruction, that they like their instructor.

[photofly]

TC doesn’t measure efficiency of training, and as far as I know its inspectors don’t sit in on briefings or teaching while conducting audits.

If you don’t measure efficiency of training then you cannot prioritize it even if you wanted to. I think that the government’s priority is to make sure that the end result of training is to an adequate standard, which they do by looking at pass rates. I imagine that the minister would say as long as what comes out of training meets the minimum standards for safety it’s up to the consumer, in the marketplace, and via the mechanism of competition between providers, to drive up efficiency.

The more I look into it, though, the more I think the problem of consumer ignorance distorts the market. If the consumer doesn’t know what efficient training is then there’s no way they can seek out providers who offer it in preference to others.

[Conflicting Traffic]

The more I look into it, though, the more I think the problem of consumer ignorance distorts the market. If the consumer doesn’t know what efficient training is then there’s no way they can seek out providers who offer it in preference to others.

+1. This is information asymmetry. The flight training market is a mess because of it. I'm not sure how the problem can be solved. Warranties are a widely used solution for physical products. But I'm not sure how you could warranty a product like education, which depends at least partly on the performance of the customer.

There are ways to change the licensing standard to resolve it. For example, instead of having a 200 h TT requirement for the CPL, the requirement could be 150 h after the issuance of the PPL. This would create a market preference for schools that can finish the PPL in a sensible amount of time - suggesting efficient training. Unfortunately, this requires action from the regulator, which is not something that can ever be counted on.

[photofly]

I would like to see the government forced to publish flight schools performance data, such as pass rate, hours at first solo and hours at flight test pass.

I know this is open to creating other obvious distortions but it would be a start.

I have made A2I requests for some of this data but it was withheld under the "commercial advantage" exemption.

[Squaretail]

I’m not so sure one can dismiss it all as consumer ignorance though. Especially given the tools the consumer has at hand to research how efficient flight training should be conducted, and what may be markers of where it may be found. This site alone would be a treasure trove of information. But besides that anyone reasonably inquisitive can find out regulatory standards, and compare training that is offered to them. The internet also offers a multitude of student testimony.

I will continue to contend that quality and efficiency of training is simply far down the list of what the consumer of flight training is looking for. Like many things, I would say convenience tops the list. A successful flight school is all about location after all. Secondly they shop on superficial qualities. New airplanes, well dressed instructors, the pageantry of what they consider aviation is about. Learning at busy controlled airports also sells. As I recall, when AOPA publishes its list of top flight schools, quality of training doesn’t make the list of why those schools are considered “top”.

[photofly]

Learning at busy controlled airports doesn’t mean training has to be inefficient.

And you’re quite right yet some students don’t prioritize efficiency. But for those that want to, hard information on which to base a decision isn’t available. Every flight school will always say “yeah, 50 to 60 hours is average” but they don’t record what their own training times are and they mislead students in this respect.

[Aviatard]

Every flight school will always say “yeah, 50 to 60 hours is average” but they don’t record what their own training times are and they mislead students in this respect.

I think this is true at a lot of schools. I know what our PPL average time to license is. It’s 68 hours, going back to 2009 which is the earliest year we have records for. Of course there are always outliers, like the guy who finished in 46 and the guy who took 197 hours.

We quote costs based on this number, although I am getting tired of explaining how we really aren’t more expensive than other places because they use 45 hours as a basis. I’d rather be up front with people. Still we get called crooks. Go figure.