Well that didn’t take long for Swoop FA’s to unionize

[GRK2]

Asking for a member of the medical professions is what they are trained to do, but guess what? Odds are there's MAYBE one on the flight. So, guess what again? I there isn't anyone who can or will step up, all FA's have received certification to provide you with First Aid. Then there's defib training, and also probably MedLink on board So help is on the way right? My comment about letting someone die is sarcasm btw, take it as you will, but the statement about being a biscuit shooter is ages old and shows a serious lack of humanity and I probably would guess some form of misogynistic leanings. Certainly not what a decent airline would expect from it's employees. Grow up and learn how to be a part of a crew and maybe pay attention. You might need their training one day. I seriously hope you don't, but if you do, I hope you thank them for saving your butt.

[Sharklasers]

37 percent of Canadians have first aid training. Smart money says that pilots in the pointy end are likely at least as qualified as the FAs. If either of them served anytime in the military they likely far surpass the FAs in both qualification and experience.
That does not make them professionals.
Lots of flight attendants do excellent jobs in their rolls, that does not make them "highly trained professionals".
That guy who cleans my pool does an excellent job and has taken manifacturer specific training and trained under another more experienced pool cleaner. That does not make him a "highly trained professional" and I doubt he's deluded enough to compare his roll to that of a nurse or pilot.

[altiplano]

GRK2 you talk about your statements having sarcasm when wishing people dead, and then you go on to tell other people to get some humanity and grow up.

Get it straight man.

This was about nurse vs. FA training and experience... do you assert that FAs are more highly trained than nurses?

And it's not misogynistic, they are both female dominated jobs sure, but that has nothing to do with it... some jobs are more highly trained than others... Comparing a nurse to an FA is ridiculous. Pay attention!

[CD]

Oh, how times have changed...

Lucile Garner was Canada’s first airline stewardess

NORA RYELL
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published March 28, 2013
Updated May 11, 2018

In 1938, Lucile Garner had the distinction of being the first Canadian airline stewardess hired by fledgling Trans-Canada Airlines (renamed Air Canada in 1965). At 5 feet 5 inches, she was actually considered tall for the stewardess requirements, but she had an important qualification besides her wholesome good looks: She was a trained nurse. For the dozen or so passengers crammed into a Lockheed Electra, this was an important consideration. Air sickness was a given on the more turbulent flights.

But Ms. Garner thought the job was a unique opportunity and a chance for adventure – something denied to most women in the Depression years of the 1930s. In a recent interview, she said: "Oh, to be a stewardess was something. It was an achievement, and the pay was $125 a month. Nurses didn't make that much money. It was an adventure, everything was new about it; it was a brand new life for women."

[GRK2]

GRK2 you talk about your statements having sarcasm when wishing people dead, and then you go on to tell other people to get some humanity and grow up.

Get it straight man.

This was about nurse vs. FA training and experience... do you assert that FAs are more highly trained than nurses?

And it's not misogynistic, they are both female dominated jobs sure, but that has nothing to do with it... some jobs are more highly trained than others... Comparing a nurse to an FA is ridiculous. Pay attention!

At NO time did I compare any job to any level of profession...best you practice what you preach. Or at least read what I had to say before you start in on me. The two jobs can't be compared. I know because i have family members who do both, so please don't put that on me. As for being misogynistic? Jury is out on that.
The smartest and best advice I ever got early in my career was to make sure that ALL crew members get fair treatment. I've seen it work more times than not. The sh*t that bunch in the back of your ride can do to mess up your day if you piss 'em off? It's a long list! So lets's dispense with the labels OK? I will if you will... (And if you didn't get my slight, medically speaking, well that's just too bad...I don't ever apologize about bad jokes! I'm all done here, it's a bad idea to keep this thread alive.

[altiplano]

Then you ought to read what I wrote too...

I appreciate the job they do, particularly when they do their job well, I like many of them, I work well with my crew, they deserve a living wage, you get what you negotiate...

I'm glad you agree that FA is not equal to nurse in respect to training and responsibility. Perhaps your personal connection to an FA in your family is what triggered your bad joke.

As you say... all done.

[KAG]

Debating about the flight attendant profession is pointless. While the job itself isn't over taxing, it can be, like ours. Now there is nothing wrong with doing it as a career, with A good solid wage. Now comparing them to nurses is also pointless. Watching my wife go through her nursing program I can assure you its a damn tough course. That said we have some extremely educated FA's (former nurses, bankers, business, physio, cops, ETC). Some have master degrees, others a wealth of non aviation related experience. They do it for the lifestyle, and for that reason it can be a career position.

[Alcoholism]

seems like some here would do well in a communist regime receiving the same loaf bread as any other commrade regardless of job. And people wonder why pilots settle for less. Check your commie cards.

[KAG]

Oh jesus, you pulled the commie card. Let's get something crystal clear, while I dont begrudge anyone a livable wage and career satisfaction we are most certinally NOT on the same level. It's not a round table, there's a head and it's the skipper, followed by the FO. Being an FA isnt a hard job, but has its shitty aspects. Being a pilot takes years of training, experience and frankly not everyone is cut out for it. I'm just pointing out while the (FA) job may be viewed as unskilled labour, there are some very educated and worldly experienced people going it.

[complexintentions]

I know this post is about WJ FAs, but look at Singapore Airlines.....their flight attendants undergo a four-month training programme.

Oh I definitely do look at Singapore Airlines flight attendants every time I'm in the same airport they are.

Hey, if altiplano can make ignorant comments about FA's why can't I?

Difference is, I get chocolate sprinkles on my cappuccino from our FA's, he's gonna get someone's spit in his food, and good on 'em.

[altiplano]

I didn't say anything that isn't true... and I don't worry about getting anything in my food, thanks.

[GRK2]

https://www.facebook.com/aflyguyslounge ... 62/?type=3

One last word...

[Hangry]

I didn't say anything that isn't true... and I don't worry about getting anything in my food, thanks.

who eats their crew meal. gross

[Eric Janson]

Disclaimer:- The opinions expressed below are those of the song writer - not mine!


Here's the final word:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMRUszqMVM8

She don't wear no pants and she don't wear no tie
Always on the ball, she's always on stride
Struttin' up the aisle, big deal you get to fly
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky

Paid my fare, don't wanna complain
You get to me, you're always outta champagne
Treat me like a bum, don't wear no tie
Because you ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky

And the sign says 'Thank you very much for not smoking'
My own sign says 'I'm sorry I'm smoking'
Don't treat me special, oh don't kiss my ass
Treat me like the way they treat 'em up in first class

Sanitation expert and a maintenance engineer
Garbage man, a janitor and you my dear
A reunion flight attendant my oh my
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky
Ohhhh

[rookiepilot]

(Frequent ) Pax view.

Appreciate almost all FA's. Most are very good, professional with safety, and do an at times demanding service job in ever more confined and crowded aircraft. I wouldn't want to do it, thanks.

I'm also currently in the oncology world with family. Dealt with a lot of nurses, for many years.

Bottom line: not even remotely in the same universe in terms of knowledge or regular responsibility, and neither should their pay scale.

[eliteair]

Getting back on topic, now that Swoop is just a Westjet plane painted in pink, was this ULCC venture a major mistake for the company? It forced unionization and degraded the stock. FA's will surely threaten a strike to get what they want. Which group is next to unionize? Operating Swoop as a separate company seems pointless now. The public perception of Rouge wasn't great in the beginning but from a business model standpoint, it's worked out great. I don't believe Swoop will have the same results under the 2 company model. WestJet may as well 'Swoop' the entire fleet.

[aerobod]

Getting back on topic, now that Swoop is just a Westjet plane painted in pink, was this ULCC venture a major mistake for the company? It forced unionization and degraded the stock. FA's will surely threaten a strike to get what they want. Which group is next to unionize? Operating Swoop as a separate company seems pointless now. The public perception of Rouge wasn't great in the beginning but from a business model standpoint, it's worked out great. I don't believe Swoop will have the same results under the 2 company model. WestJet may as well 'Swoop' the entire fleet.

There’s a lot more to Swoop than “WestJet on the cheap”. The two operations are designed to be separate and have little compatibility. WestJet can’t meet the Swoop cost targets and Swoop can’t meet the WestJet product offerings, especially as it moves more into the business market.

Key Swoop characteristics:
- point-to-point flying with no feed
- ex-fuel CASM of 7c
- completely un-bundled
- very basic Res and DCS system that won’t operate with partners (significant cost saving over WesJet systems)
- simplified processes with emphasis on self-serve, close to Ryanair and Spirit Airlinex philosophy to minimize cost

Key WestJet characteristics:
- network flying that requires feed to operate effectively
- ex-fuel CASM of 10c
- variety of product offerings, becoming more complex as business offerings evolve
- complex systems and process integration, leading to much higher sales and fulfilment costs than Swoop
- strong reliance on partners, increasing as widebody flying increases

[jjj]

Getting back on topic, now that Swoop is just a Westjet plane painted in pink, was this ULCC venture a major mistake for the company? It forced unionization and degraded the stock. FA's will surely threaten a strike to get what they want. Which group is next to unionize? Operating Swoop as a separate company seems pointless now. The public perception of Rouge wasn't great in the beginning but from a business model standpoint, it's worked out great. I don't believe Swoop will have the same results under the 2 company model. WestJet may as well 'Swoop' the entire fleet.

There’s a lot more to Swoop than “WestJet on the cheap”. The two operations are designed to be separate and have little compatibility. WestJet can’t meet the Swoop cost targets and Swoop can’t meet the WestJet product offerings, especially as it moves more into the business market.

Key Swoop characteristics:
- point-to-point flying with no feed
- ex-fuel CASM of 7c
- completely un-bundled
- very basic Res and DCS system that won’t operate with partners (significant cost saving over WesJet systems)
- simplified processes with emphasis on self-serve, close to Ryanair and Spirit Airlinex philosophy to minimize cost

Key WestJet characteristics:
- network flying that requires feed to operate effectively
- ex-fuel CASM of 10c
- variety of product offerings, becoming more complex as business offerings evolve
- complex systems and process integration, leading to much higher sales and fulfilment costs than Swoop
- strong reliance on partners, increasing as widebody flying increases

The two operations are designed to attack labour and noting else.

You don't need a separate company to launch another brand.

You do need another company under the parent corp to play a shell game with money. You can trade off costs to make the books say what you want to make any argument you want about profitability and sustainability - It artificially creates the needed buy in.

You can launch the new brand with the right amount of product division and not have to incur start up costs or redundancies in positions like CEOs and Chief pilots and and and...

Swoop CASM is artificially constructed and paid for in full in cash by your friendly neighbourhood WestJetters from across the country.

The product could have been launched for cheaper with much more efficiency and freedom to scale up and down and also handle IROP recovery. The man-power and systems were already in place. CEOs are not cheap, nor are additional reservation systems etc.

I look forward to my next OT shift when I fly a recovery charter for Swoop - I'm sure WestJet will charge a premium for the service.

Cheers.

JJJ

[aerobod]

Getting back on topic, now that Swoop is just a Westjet plane painted in pink, was this ULCC venture a major mistake for the company? It forced unionization and degraded the stock. FA's will surely threaten a strike to get what they want. Which group is next to unionize? Operating Swoop as a separate company seems pointless now. The public perception of Rouge wasn't great in the beginning but from a business model standpoint, it's worked out great. I don't believe Swoop will have the same results under the 2 company model. WestJet may as well 'Swoop' the entire fleet.

There’s a lot more to Swoop than “WestJet on the cheap”. The two operations are designed to be separate and have little compatibility. WestJet can’t meet the Swoop cost targets and Swoop can’t meet the WestJet product offerings, especially as it moves more into the business market.

Key Swoop characteristics:
- point-to-point flying with no feed
- ex-fuel CASM of 7c
- completely un-bundled
- very basic Res and DCS system that won’t operate with partners (significant cost saving over WesJet systems)
- simplified processes with emphasis on self-serve, close to Ryanair and Spirit Airlinex philosophy to minimize cost

Key WestJet characteristics:
- network flying that requires feed to operate effectively
- ex-fuel CASM of 10c
- variety of product offerings, becoming more complex as business offerings evolve
- complex systems and process integration, leading to much higher sales and fulfilment costs than Swoop
- strong reliance on partners, increasing as widebody flying increases

The two operations are designed to attack labour and noting else.

You don't need a separate company to launch another brand.

You do need another company under the parent corp to play a shell game with money. You can trade off costs to make the books say what you want to make any argument you want about profitability and sustainability - It artificially creates the needed buy in.

You can launch the new brand with the right amount of product division and not have to incur start up costs or redundancies in positions like CEOs and Chief pilots and and and...

Swoop CASM is artificially constructed and paid for in full in cash by your friendly neighbourhood WestJetters from across the country.

The product could have been launched for cheaper with much more efficiency and freedom to scale up and down and also handle IROP recovery. The man-power and systems were already in place. CEOs are not cheap, nor are additional reservation systems etc.

I look forward to my next OT shift when I fly a recovery charter for Swoop - I'm sure WestJet will charge a premium for the service.

Cheers.

JJJ

Labour issues came much later than Swoop as a project, it has been almost 3 years since the initial business case was done. It is a consequence of market conditions and the move of WestJet up market. If you haven’t read all the available investor material that has been published and talked to the Sweop business team and execs such as Harry, you won’t have the business case understanding of why Swoop has to be separate and why a sub brand or fare class won’t work.

It has always been the aim to continue growing mainline, while defending the ULCC market that is finally emerging in Canada. Jetstar is the operational model that Swoop is closest to and is the only good model for profitable and effective ULCC that exists for a wholly owned ULCC subsidiary, all other airline within airline and branding attempts to meet ULCC competitive costs have all been failures.

Operationally there are many brutal decisions that have to be made to be a successful ULCC. if you haven’t flown as a passenger on Spirit or Ryanair and reviewed their processes and how different they are to network airlines (that WestJet has effectively become), you won’t understand why you can’t just add on ULCC fares and do anything other than lose money on each seat sold at ULCC prices, there is no economy of scale in using the same airport employees for both types of operation, the processes are not compatible. About 8 years ago I reviewed a lot of the Ryanair airport processes with the WestJet airports team, as Ryanair is about 3 times more efficient in boarding passengers than legacy airlines, but the cultural and marketing shift would have been too great to adopt similar processes. I’m glad to see that Swoop processes are quite close to those of Ryanair (in fact using the same res and DCS system as Ryanair helps a lot in this respect).

[Mr. North]

That's all very sensible aerobod but that still doesn't rectify the fact that Swoop is using WestJet resources to operate. I know plenty of people in other mainline departments now taking on Swoop work. As JJJ mentioned, as long as Swoop is contracting services from the parent company for pennies on the dollar they can easily point to Swoop as being the most profitable airline ever (thereby deserving growth at the expense of mainline).

Most WestJet pilots understand the business reasons for Swoop. However the way it's structured allows for whipsaw which simply cannot be tolerated.