436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

[Lt Colombo]

Am I reading this right: new FOs can fly a 777 for about 5x less than what they could earn on the same aircraft at EK; then pay a rent in YYZ (compared to free accommodation offered in DXB). Interesting times.. 🤮
I really hope airlines in Canada will have no choices but to increase their payscale; it’s ridiculous.

I can't agree with you more unfortunately as long as there as ball lickers amongs drivers Canadian salaries aint going nowhere

[Blue Side Up]

The biggest issue at AC I think is flat pay. If you bid the right seat of the 777 or 330 and get on formula right away it would be fine. Once you’re off flat pay you’re making $165,000 and working 9-12 days on reserve.. it’s not bad. The flat pay is archaic and needs to go.

I agree you can make a lot more money over seas but remember... it’ll never be the same as being home! It works for people who are flexible but if you want a normal life in Canada, AC is still the best place to be. I would not want to commute to China or the sand pit even if they are paying $500k. F**k that!

[Lightchop]

The biggest issue at AC I think is flat pay. If you bid the right seat of the 777 or 330 and get on formula right away it would be fine. Once you’re off flat pay you’re making $165,000 and working 9-12 days on reserve.. it’s not bad. The flat pay is archaic and needs to go.

I agree you can make a lot more money over seas but remember... it’ll never be the same as being home! It works for people who are flexible but if you want a normal life in Canada, AC is still the best place to be. I would not want to commute to China or the sand pit even if they are paying $500k. F**k that!

Yeah I agree. If the flat pay didn't exist, I wouldn't even be looking into things overseas. I think it's pretty disrespectful to the pilot group/industry as a whole that it even exists. It would also help if there wasn't radio silence from AC regarding the "Express Pilot Portal." Like all I keep hearing about is how many vacancies there are, and Jazz is overstaffed right now but no one (or VERY few people) are getting called for interviews. I'm not saying "GIVE ME A JOB" because no one is entitled to anything but an interview would be nice at least.

$150+k in Canada working 9-12 days would be just fine. I don't think anyone can complain about that.

The shit thing is, anyone leaving Jazz or SR as a Captain will have to take basically a $30,000+ pay cut and have a worse contract in some ways (reserve rules are a big one). I realize long term it's likely worth the temporary drop, but we shouldn't even have to look at it from that perspective because it shouldn't exist in the first place. If this ACPA/ALPA merger goes through I hope there is some push to get this removed. I'd say it's a bigger deal than the Table 1 pay at Jazz.

[Lightchop]

double post

[groundpilot]

The combination of the 4 years flat pay & DC pension gives ACPA ZERO credibility.

I think anyone who was involved with that should hide themselves in a cockpit as they not only let down AC pilots but all of the Cdn Industry

[Old fella]

Thought I read on this site a good many times that initial AC courses has its fair share of pilots from the AC feeders as well from WJ/Encore/Porter/Jazz/AT/Sunwing and Northern Operations such as CN, First Air. If such is the case, could one assume that some current pilots at those companies I noted do have their applications on file for future consideration at AC. I am not of the airline breed , never have but sure gives the impression Air Canada is the place to be. Just saying.

[Anticyclone]

135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things

Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself.

[Lightchop]

135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things

Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself.

Lots of people are frustrated, especially those of us that have been here a few years and sit in a left seat. The PML was used as a shady hiring tactic, and done so in a way that made it seem like an interview was a sure thing. It's annoying to see (but I'm also happy for them) friends who were hired 6-8 months before me already at AC for nearly a year because they managed to get on the last actual "list." Both of whom were only FOs and spent less than two years at Jazz.

Yet since the new "portal" opened up not a peep. If I could interview and at least an offer or get a PFO then I can plan my life a bit better. But sitting in limbo while AC continues to hire Westjet and Encore pilots while Jazz offers LOAs because of overstaffing is frustrating indeed.

[daedalusx]

135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things

Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself.

Lots of people are frustrated, especially those of us that have been here a few years and sit in a left seat. The PML was used as a shady hiring tactic, and done so in a way that made it seem like an interview was a sure thing. It's annoying to see (but I'm also happy for them) friends who were hired 6-8 months before me already at AC for nearly a year because they managed to get on the last actual "list." Both of whom were only FOs and spent less than two years at Jazz.

Yet since the new "portal" opened up not a peep. If I could interview and at least an offer or get a PFO then I can plan my life a bit better. But sitting in limbo while AC continues to hire Westjet and Encore pilots while Jazz offers LOAs because of overstaffing is frustrating indeed.

I can relate 100%. Same thing happened to us... And I still need another year on the left seat to be able to pay back my line of credit of all my financial losses for the first year and half on that disgraceful pay scale. I just want the PFO so I can move on.

[Blue Side Up]

I understand it’s frustrating guys... but if I can offer one piece of advice here it is: Air Canada doesn’t owe you anything. It’s a multi billion dollar corporation and at the end of the day they make decisions based on what’s best for the company. The original PML, which I was a part of, was implemented to get a lot of the high paid skippers from Jazz over to Mainline by offering them the FIP for the first four years. The PML 2.0 or whatever it was was never in the original agreement and Air Canada didn’t need to hire exclusively from Jazz anymore once PML 1.0 was exhausted.
From a business perspective would it make more sense to increase the training costs internally (at Jazz) or hurt the competition by hiring from other airlines? The whole PML thing was used as a lure for the regionals to entice pilots at reduced pay to feed the regionals with the “chance” at an Air Canada interview. There’s no contract that I know of that says AC needs to hire from the regionals anymore. The original PML was the only formal agreement between the pilot groups. The 2.0, 3.0 whatever it is now was Jazz’s way of dangling a carrot in front of guys so they’d take a job for 36k a year.
Do I agree with these strategies? Absolutely not. The only thing you can do is be patient and if you get the interview show up with a smile and be respectful. If the hiring team senses any sense of entitlement or anything like that you’ll get the PFO really quick. There’s a ton of opportunity for pilots right now. Submit your applications to other places if you’re not happy at Jazz and enjoy the journey. I absolutely loved my time at Jazz and was planning on staying there for the long term if I got PFOd from AC. It’s an awesome gig and I have nothing but fond memories bombing around in the classic. Great people, great airplanes and great company. Your journey is what you make it, doesn’t mean it has to be AC.

Good luck!

[Lightchop]

I understand it’s frustrating guys... but if I can offer one piece of advice here it is: Air Canada doesn’t owe you anything. It’s a multi billion dollar corporation and at the end of the day they make decisions based on what’s best for the company. The original PML, which I was a part of, was implemented to get a lot of the high paid skippers from Jazz over to Mainline by offering them the FIP for the first four years. The PML 2.0 or whatever it was was never in the original agreement and Air Canada didn’t need to hire exclusively from Jazz anymore once PML 1.0 was exhausted.
From a business perspective would it make more sense to increase the training costs internally (at Jazz) or hurt the competition by hiring from other airlines? The whole PML thing was used as a lure for the regionals to entice pilots at reduced pay to feed the regionals with the “chance” at an Air Canada interview. There’s no contract that I know of that says AC needs to hire from the regionals anymore. The original PML was the only formal agreement between the pilot groups. The 2.0, 3.0 whatever it is now was Jazz’s way of dangling a carrot in front of guys so they’d take a job for 36k a year.
Do I agree with these strategies? Absolutely not. The only thing you can do is be patient and if you get the interview show up with a smile and be respectful. If the hiring team senses any sense of entitlement or anything like that you’ll get the PFO really quick. There’s a ton of opportunity for pilots right now. Submit your applications to other places if you’re not happy at Jazz and enjoy the journey. I absolutely loved my time at Jazz and was planning on staying there for the long term if I got PFOd from AC. It’s an awesome gig and I have nothing but fond memories bombing around in the classic. Great people, great airplanes and great company. Your journey is what you make it, doesn’t mean it has to be AC.

Good luck!

I agree with everything you said.

You're right, no one owes me anything. I understand that. The only frustrating thing is at the time of being hired, management at Jazz really over sold the FPML as "sure interview." I saw many pilots go over with the second variation of the PML, but since that one closed in December of 2016 it was radio silence for over a year before they opened the "Express Portal." I'm not aware of anyone who applied via that new system having had an interview yet.

It's not just a Jazz thing either. All the Express carriers have seen a huge drop in hiring to mainline and all we see on our end is an increase in Westjet hiring. AC needs to be careful because if they don't start taking people, no one will want to work at Express. It's easy to put up with junk pay if you know in 2-3 years you'll have the chance to interview. But now I'm seeing some great Captains being PFOd with no apparent reason. Guys I flew with when I was an FO. And lack of interviewing for the last 12 months.

I like my job at Jazz, I honestly wouldn't want to be anywhere else regional wise in Canada. But let's be serious, everyone more or less came here for a shot at AC, and if things don't start moving soon Jazz is going to lose a lot of people. I know a number of Captains who are all exploring opportunities at Sunwing, AT, Emirates etc. I could leave tomorrow and make close to $200k CAD year one as a 767 FO. Essentially month in month out. I know, that's not for everyone so it's not a fair comparison and if I got a job offer at AC it wouldn't even be a question. I want to stay in Canada if I can, even if it means dealing with flat pay. Home is home. But if I don't see some movement soon (remember I'm not even talking about myself I'm speaking generally, there's lots of guys and girls here who have been around longer than me that are also waiting for a call) it might be time to start looking elsewhere. Perhaps take an LOA if I can until AC blinks or I get off reserve. Things have not moved much in the last 12 months. Hope to see an up tick here this fall.

[Eric Janson]

I agree you can make a lot more money over seas but remember... it’ll never be the same as being home! It works for people who are flexible but if you want a normal life in Canada, AC is still the best place to be. I would not want to commute to China or the sand pit even if they are paying $500k. F**k that!

When I worked overseas I didn't commute as a return trip home cost 3 days. Commuting grinds you down - I can't see it being a viable option long term.

I made more money flying the same number of hours as the Commuters and I had 60 days of leave to play with.

I used to take 3 blocks of 20 days to actually give me some useful time at home.

The issue that people never think about is what happens when they want to return to Canada? Starting at the bottom again isn't a viable option for a lot of people.

With the current job market in Canada you'd be foolish to go overseas - just my opinion.

[DHC7DVR]

Anyone know what the first year pay is at AC? I've looked around, but got some seriously conflicting answers..

I've just heard that they called my referances last Wednesday, but nothing heard yet. Then again it might be a moot point anyway; if the first year pay is as low as one of the estimate Ive heard, then it's simply not going to be economicly viable....

[AOW]

Anyone know what the first year pay is at AC? I've looked around, but got some seriously conflicting answers..

I've just heard that they called my referances last Wednesday, but nothing heard yet. Then again it might be a moot point anyway; if the first year pay is as low as one of the estimate Ive heard, then it's simply not going to be economicly viable....

1st year salary, until April 2019, is $58.88/hr, with a minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours. 2nd year is $64.38, 3rd year $73.37, 4th year $82.16. All those numbers go up 2% per year, in April... hopefully more with the next contract, but that might be a half a lifetime away!

[DHC7DVR]

Thanks for the info; much appreciated...

[Blue Side Up]

If you’re a new hire and you’re worried about the pay; I’d recommend Rouge. Especially the 67. Plenty of draft available and during the shoulder seasons you can work as little as 6-10 days depending on how you bid. 77.5 monthly guarantee and draft pays 2.5x. So you’re $59/hr is $147/hr on draft. The flat pay is BS but you’ll make more money at Rouge with the obvious downside of working on your days off. It’s a trade off. If you’re working 8 days it’s no big deal to pick up a 2 or 3 dayer in my opinion. Also the fact that there’s no reserve is pretty sweet. Mainline is the best gig when you have seniority and you’re off flat pay or in the left seat. Plenty of variety at AC.. that’s key.

Hope this helps

[altiplano]

Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.

[atphat]

Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.

All OT at Rouge is now 2.5

[ZBBYLW]

Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.

That's not true almost all overtime at rouge is 2.5x.

[Duke Point]

Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.

The reason not all wait for draft pay and take AVO at 1.5 is that not everyone is sitting around Toronto waiting for the phone to ring. There are plenty of Rouge pilots that commute from Halifax, Calgary, Winnipeg and the like, that WILL NOT get called for draft by crew sked becuase they are just too far away. AVO is often the only way some poeple can do any overtime. Its always the guys who are located 20 minutes from the airport that rag on guys from Halifax accepting VO for the next day, when they think they should have gotten it on draft.

DP