Sim Eval 2018

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Outlaw58
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 »

Rupert.Pupkin wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
By that logic, neither is the 320, or 330, or 767....heck or even the 777 or 787 for that matter.

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Lightchop
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop »

And many 250 hour pilots all over the world successfully fly those types.
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Rupert.Pupkin
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Rupert.Pupkin »

Outlaw58 wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:13 pm
Rupert.Pupkin wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
By that logic, neither is the 320, or 330, or 767....heck or even the 777 or 787 for that matter.

58
With the right training anyone can fly those airplanes. The actual difficult flying is hand bombing twin turbines around up north all day in crappy weather. Doing a hand flown approach to mins after 13:45 hours of flying all day. My opinion though.
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Cristian92
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Cristian92 »

dustincanuck wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:43 pm Yah I know it is kinda crazy but I'm just taking the opportunities that come to me. We'll see I haven't got a job offer yet but hopefully soon. I think the plan is the RJ. I would like to be in YVR or yyc and I hear both YVR and yyc RJ is a pretty good schedule. Anything would be amazing though so we'll just see what happens. Not Seneca btw but similar.
Just for your info jazz is overstaff right now and you will probably be placed in a pool for couple of months so you might have to wait for the job offer a bit.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by DH8Pilot »

Rupert.Pupkin wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
In my opinion, the first 1000hrs of a pilot's career are fundamental in developing their knowledge and hands-and-feet flying. While I agree the extent to which this is possible at Jazz is limited, relative to the northern flying much of us started with, the DH8 offers the best option to do so of all the aircraft in the fleet.

Like I said earlier, you're down low in the weather, doing the most amounts of legs per day. The more you get to see this type of operation, the better off you are. Like anything, practice makes perfect, and I'd argue a low-time pilot would benefit more doing a bunch of short DH8 hops per day, than a couple of longer RJ flights, up above the weather, landing on long runways with almost exclusively ILS approaches.

As mentioned by another user, the DH8 is a more forgiving aircraft flying wise, making it an easier transition from the trainer type aircraft the college applicants would've flown before. However, in terms of system knowledge, I'd argue the DH8 demands a greater extent of it, given the limited help it gives you with respect to indicators and the QRH. I've never flown the Q or RJ, but those I know who've transitioned onto it say these planes will do a lot more for your in emergencies.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 »

DH8Pilot wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:01 am
Rupert.Pupkin wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
In my opinion, the first 1000hrs of a pilot's career are fundamental in developing their knowledge and hands-and-feet flying. While I agree the extent to which this is possible at Jazz is limited, relative to the northern flying much of us started with, the DH8 offers the best option to do so of all the aircraft in the fleet.

Like I said earlier, you're down low in the weather, doing the most amounts of legs per day. The more you get to see this type of operation, the better off you are. Like anything, practice makes perfect, and I'd argue a low-time pilot would benefit more doing a bunch of short DH8 hops per day, than a couple of longer RJ flights, up above the weather, landing on long runways with almost exclusively ILS approaches.

As mentioned by another user, the DH8 is a more forgiving aircraft flying wise, making it an easier transition from the trainer type aircraft the college applicants would've flown before. However, in terms of system knowledge, I'd argue the DH8 demands a greater extent of it, given the limited help it gives you with respect to indicators and the QRH. I've never flown the Q or RJ, but those I know who've transitioned onto it say these planes will do a lot more for your in emergencies.
I tend to agree with that.

While the previous posters make a valid case that anyone can fly those highly automated planes with the right training, I also believe that it is not a good idea to put someone in those cockpit who hasn't previously benefited from the hand-bombing, system knowledge development and most importantly, the decision-making skills that comes with this type of flying. At the risk of being a bit rude, only someone who hasn't benefited from that kind of experience would think that just because it is doable, low experience pilots should jump right to the advanced cockpits.

Reality is that technology does fail and when it does, what kind of piloting experience do you want up front? I'd like to think that there is a bit more to flying as an FO (especially if you don't plan on sticking in the right seat) than to proficiently smash the buttons the captain tells you to.

That being said, regarding the OP's dilemma, is that on the 2nd day of ground school, whether you get to fly the RJ, the Q or the classic could very well be left entirely up to you. You have an entire flying career ahead of you, choose wisely.

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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by C-GGGQ »

I'm going to flip this around for a change

"I can't believe you ask someone freshly licensed to fly a metro without autopilot into small dirt strips in bad Canadian weather with no precision approaches. They should have to earn the experience to fly those challenging and dangerous routes with an experienced captain on board an jet that is highly automated. Less for him to screw up till he learns proper decision making"

I mean water bombers and other low and slow aircraft are reserved for high timers. Why wouldn't bad northern routes in old aircraft with no modern systems to help?

Argue away.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 »

OK...fine,

There was this dude who stumbled on to people that didn't have hands and had never met anyone with hands. The dude said look! I have hands and the folks replied:"What are hands??"

Don't get it? thats ok.

58

"Experience is something someone acquires a second after needing it"
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dustincanuck
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by dustincanuck »

I appreciate the advice guys. Lots to think about. I'm just focusing on actually getting a job offer right now while exploring some other flying opportunities should Jazz throw me in the pool for an undetermined amount of time. I'll worry about what to bid if I get a groundschool date!
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by C-GGGQ »

Outlaw58 wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:50 pm OK...fine,

There was this dude who stumbled on to people that didn't have hands and had never met anyone with hands. The dude said look! I have hands and the folks replied:"What are hands??"

Don't get it? thats ok.

58

"Experience is something someone acquires a second after needing it"
I get what you are saying. I would debate that while the person with hands would be at a total loss if his hands were removed, the people without hands would just ignore them if granted as they never needed it before. Also, to be clear I'm just home sick and stirring the pot. seeing if someone comes up with a half decent argument.

However as gaining experience factors in to the OP's decision, I would say that any aircraft in the fleet for a new pilot is going to be drinking from the fire hose. In the current climate and market I also think it would be doing him a disservice to tell him to bid something just cause "it will make you a better pilot" which I think is debatable when talking about classic, vs q, rj. Instead of telling him, as we would to any senior pilot, to bid the lifestyle/ schedule he wants. I mean what he bids and what he gets wont necessarily be the same thing of course, so don't bid just cause some senior guys think it's better for you. When likely there is some (not totally, but some) factor of " you don't deserve it yet" we are all guilty of that to some extent. I couldn't believe students were being allowed things like foreflight and e6b apps in training just cause it didn't exist back when I did mine so why should you get it.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 »

C-GGGQ wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:42 pm
Outlaw58 wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:50 pm OK...fine,

There was this dude who stumbled on to people that didn't have hands and had never met anyone with hands. The dude said look! I have hands and the folks replied:"What are hands??"

Don't get it? thats ok.

58

"Experience is something someone acquires a second after needing it"
I get what you are saying. I would debate that while the person with hands would be at a total loss if his hands were removed, the people without hands would just ignore them if granted as they never needed it before. Also, to be clear I'm just home sick and stirring the pot. seeing if someone comes up with a half decent argument.

However as gaining experience factors in to the OP's decision, I would say that any aircraft in the fleet for a new pilot is going to be drinking from the fire hose. In the current climate and market I also think it would be doing him a disservice to tell him to bid something just cause "it will make you a better pilot" which I think is debatable when talking about classic, vs q, rj. Instead of telling him, as we would to any senior pilot, to bid the lifestyle/ schedule he wants. I mean what he bids and what he gets wont necessarily be the same thing of course, so don't bid just cause some senior guys think it's better for you. When likely there is some (not totally, but some) factor of " you don't deserve it yet" we are all guilty of that to some extent. I couldn't believe students were being allowed things like foreflight and e6b apps in training just cause it didn't exist back when I did mine so why should you get it.
Can't say I disagree with anything you are saying. I think I was a little vague in my last post to the OP when I said he could actually be in a position to bid on either platform. I wish him well, I hope he likes his bid but you and I know that whatever happens, no matter what we say, it is only 30 odd years down the road that he will fully understand the full impact of that one little choice. Not saying that the choice could make or break his career, far from it. Just that he will eventually look back on his flying and go "gosh that was dumb" or "damn I got lucky" or even "Now I get it"... I just wish that the choice(s) he make(s) will reduce the number and length of aforementioned period... that's all.

58

PS: In my own particular case, speaking of those "that was dumb" moment... I am thankful that at the time, I didn't have a large aircraft limiting my options with a full load of passengers biaising my decisions, making the one right call a heck of a lot more obvious. A luxury that an increasing number of up and coming pilots no longer have these days.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 »

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Warnergah
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Sim Eval 2018

Post by Warnergah »

No point buying a DX10 card yet as the sim doesnt support the hardware.

Patch will be out for it in the future
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