Where is this so called shortage

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5400AirportRdSouth
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by 5400AirportRdSouth »

Nope. For one thing, pilot training is inadequate. I flew 703/704 for many years and a lot of it was in very challenging environments. I can tell you, and you aren't going to like this, but other than (maybe)! being able to steer a plane straight & level and interpret an approach plate, you have few skills that do me any good as a captain. Some are better than others, but the challenges experienced by most brand-new pilots include things like "landing on the centreline" and "maintaining altitude".

Maybe some of the problem is that you're probably in the right-hand seat and things feel different to you. Possibly it's due to the fact that the plane is a multi-crew turboprop that is many times bigger, more powerful and heavier than your little trainer. Since almost everybody seems to go through the stage where they really, really suck at flying, it's probably not your fault.

But here's the thing. Nobody knows you, and nobody owes you anything. We already know that there will be a period of time during which one of the more senior captains is going to have to spend some time sitting with you trying to decide whether it's safe to allow you to take over the controls, knowing damn well that the whole excersize is likely to end with you touching down on the downwind wheel or float, losing control of the rudder and careening down the runway or lake trying to steer with the "steering wheel" while the captain, eyes big as saucers, tries to peel your sweaty little hand, now frozen into an iron grip, off the power levers so he can exert some kind of directional control over a rapidly deteriorating situation. Over and over and over again, until someday you "get it" and become a crewmember whose presence in the cockpit makes the plane MORE safe, rather than a training scenario the people in the back are unwittingly paying to witness.

The whole thing is incredibly stressful. Many times, I have had a discussion with the chief pilot or the DFO about whether there's any profit in continuing to devote resources to somebody who just doesn't seem to be catching on. Up to this point, I have always been on the side of the new pilot. This is probably because I like young people, and I myself had some trouble "catching on" when I started out, some thirty years ago now. My chief pilot then liked me, and he liked me because I worked hard on the dock.

You probably think you're a pretty good pilot, as does everyone with a commercial ticket and the nerve to apply to our company as a "professional". But here's the truth: you've been taught to row a boat in calm waters. You're applying to be a bridge officer on a ship. You have no idea what kind of risk you're asking people to take on you, and now you're asking them to take that risk on someone they don't even know. No thanks. I hated every second on the ramp too, but at least when I started flying I knew how to perform some of the ancillary duties all pilots have to perform, so my uselessness in the cockpit wasn't an all-encompassing disaster.

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
Hear Hear!

This should be a sticky. Seriously.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

Meatservo wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm
munzil wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm
FICU wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 pm In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.
Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?
Nope. For one thing, pilot training is inadequate. I flew 703/704 for many years and a lot of it was in very challenging environments. I can tell you, and you aren't going to like this, but other than (maybe)! being able to steer a plane straight & level and interpret an approach plate, you have few skills that do me any good as a captain. Some are better than others, but the challenges experienced by most brand-new pilots include things like "landing on the centreline" and "maintaining altitude".

Maybe some of the problem is that you're probably in the right-hand seat and things feel different to you. Possibly it's due to the fact that the plane is a multi-crew turboprop that is many times bigger, more powerful and heavier than your little trainer. Since almost everybody seems to go through the stage where they really, really suck at flying, it's probably not your fault.

But here's the thing. Nobody knows you, and nobody owes you anything. We already know that there will be a period of time during which one of the more senior captains is going to have to spend some time sitting with you trying to decide whether it's safe to allow you to take over the controls, knowing damn well that the whole excersize is likely to end with you touching down on the downwind wheel or float, losing control of the rudder and careening down the runway or lake trying to steer with the "steering wheel" while the captain, eyes big as saucers, tries to peel your sweaty little hand, now frozen into an iron grip, off the power levers so he can exert some kind of directional control over a rapidly deteriorating situation. Over and over and over again, until someday you "get it" and become a crewmember whose presence in the cockpit makes the plane MORE safe, rather than a training scenario the people in the back are unwittingly paying to witness.

The whole thing is incredibly stressful. Many times, I have had a discussion with the chief pilot or the DFO about whether there's any profit in continuing to devote resources to somebody who just doesn't seem to be catching on. Up to this point, I have always been on the side of the new pilot. This is probably because I like young people, and I myself had some trouble "catching on" when I started out, some thirty years ago now. My chief pilot then liked me, and he liked me because I worked hard on the dock.

You probably think you're a pretty good pilot, as does everyone with a commercial ticket and the nerve to apply to our company as a "professional". But here's the truth: you've been taught to row a boat in calm waters. You're applying to be a bridge officer on a ship. You have no idea what kind of risk you're asking people to take on you, and now you're asking them to take that risk on someone they don't even know. No thanks. I hated every second on the ramp too, but at least when I started flying I knew how to perform some of the ancillary duties all pilots have to perform, so my uselessness in the cockpit wasn't an all-encompassing disaster.

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
We've had this discussion here a few times before. Your post sounds all nice, trying to explain why people have to go through the ramp. But the truth is, it's only done because operators want cheap labor. That's it. If a non-pilot would do it cheaper than a pilot, they would hire non-pilots. No pilot has ever gotten better at flying a plane by working on the ramp. Never happened. Never will happen. You want to know if a guy is a total buffoon? Put him on the ramp for a week during groundschool. That will tell you all you need to know. Other than that, you are trying to figure out "how much shit is he willing to put up with to get in an airplane seat" while trying to get cheap ramp labor, which has nothing to do with quality of flying, or being useful in the cockpit.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Meatservo »

digits_ wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:53 pm We've had this discussion here a few times before. Your post sounds all nice, trying to explain why people have to go through the ramp. But the truth is, it's only done because operators want cheap labor. That's it. If a non-pilot would do it cheaper than a pilot, they would hire non-pilots. No pilot has ever gotten better at flying a plane by working on the ramp. Never happened. Never will happen. You want to know if a guy is a total buffoon? Put him on the ramp for a week during groundschool. That will tell you all you need to know. Other than that, you are trying to figure out "how much shit is he willing to put up with to get in an airplane seat" while trying to get cheap ramp labor, which has nothing to do with quality of flying, or being useful in the cockpit.
So you do ARE advocating putting them on the ramp to start out. I don't know what groundschool you've been attending, but during groundschool most pilots are "attending groundschool", so working the ramp would be impossible.
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munzil
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by munzil »

Meatservo wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

munzil wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:03 pm
Meatservo wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
:prayer: :prayer:
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

There is no shortage of pilots. There is a shortage though of pilots that have current PPCs on the type that the company operates, lots of big experience and hours to keep their insurance rates as low as possible and don't forget to be willing to relocate and put up with their crappy starting salaries.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

Meatservo wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 pm

So you do ARE advocating putting them on the ramp to start out. I don't know what groundschool you've been attending, but during groundschool most pilots are "attending groundschool", so working the ramp would be impossible.
I am not. However if an employer thinks it is necessary to gain ramp skills or to use the ramp as a test, a week on the ramp is all he would need to evaluate a candidate. That can be done before, after or even during groundschool depending on schedule. More than a week and you are just using them as cheap labour.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Diadem »

I don't think pilots should work the ramp, but if that's the only path that exists towards getting a flying job and someone isn't willing to do it, then I don't have any sympathy for them when they can't get into a cockpit. If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to become a pilot, then you probably won't get to where you want to be. If a company has planes parked because they require all pilots to do six months on the ramp, then yes, that's stupid and exploitative; on the other hand, if they have a full complement of pilots and want new hires to throw bags for a bit, the ones who are willing to work the ramp will end up flying and the ones who don't will still be exactly where they were before. You, personally, can sit around obstinately refusing to accept anything less than what you think you're worth, and I commend your resolve, but unless every low-timer is willing to take the same stand it won't change anything. In that case, you need to question whether you're willing to do what it takes to become a pilot, and if you're not willing to do it then find a new career. You can rage against the unfairness of the rules all you want, or you can learn to play by them; at the end of the day, if you don't play by the rules as they're currently written, you'll lose the game.
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Meatservo
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Meatservo »

munzil wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:03 pm
Meatservo wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
I was talking to the kid who quit.


I see nothing in this post that would be sensible to argue against, but if we were going to overhaul our attitudes towards ramp work, or not doing ramp work, then I would like to see an improvement in the quality of training in Canada as well! That way, if your new F.O. isn't good for much else, you could at least count on him or her to be able to fly! Right now, it's US that has to teach them to fly, and they can at least earn their keep helping with the other stuff in the meantime.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by goingnowherefast »

There are some real ass hats out there. How do you figure out who's a decent person and who's a clown before dropping 30 grand on a FlightSafety course? It would be nice to fire the clown a week into ramping instead of a week into line indoc.

The best method is probably to run a week long company indoc, crm, pdm, aircraft ground school, etc. for a class of 10. Boot the bottom 3 candidates based on behavior, attitude, punctuality, etc. Call it a week long "performance interview".

Bottom line is 250hr pilots fresh from training will turn a 2 crew cockpit into about 3/4 crew because the captain is so busy babysitting. Want to hear a bunch of hilarious and scary stories? Just walk in on a bunch of line indoc captains talking about some of their adventures. Planes do get bent and that turns a 30 grans PPC into a 100 grand training repair bill. I'm sure the operations managers and chief pilots would like to know the person a bit better than a 15 minute, well rehearsed and scripted "interview". After all, 250hr FO candidates always say what they think the chief pilot wants to hear.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

I think this whole thread boils down to how folks view a career in the aviation industry.

Over the last two decade or so, we have seen a rise in folks who view flying career as their god-given rights and damned be anyone who would suggest they'd have to work for it. For those who did work hard for it, be it through working ramps, expatriation, military, instructing, or whatever... flying careers are viewed as a privilege that they had to earn, requiring continuous work and discipline in order to keep that privilege.

I don't think anyone suggest that folks who don't work the ramp don't deserve to fly, just that folks should start viewing flying as a privilege rather than a right and be ready to work accordingly in order to earn that privilege.

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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by FICU »

Too many 200 wonders and not enough 200 hour wonder flying jobs. The only thing that differentiates all the 200 hour wonders is their personality in terms of working well with other crew members and, more importantly, their work ethic. You have to prove yourself to these 703 operators if you want a seat in a cockpit. Your flying qualifications mean squat.
munzil wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm
FICU wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 pm In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.
Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by DanWEC »

There are bad employers in every industry. This isn't unique to aviation.
Choosing the people you work for is entirely your own decision.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by SkySailor »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
Good question. REALLY good question. :roll:
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by 7507 »

Just do it the way the U.S is doing it , minimum 1500 hours to get the right seat job and now you don't deal with all these so called young 200 hour wonder kids flying with their captains that have to babysit them.

Then you'll have a decent crew that won't bend the metal and maybe the complaning from the captain babysitters will slow down.

Thoughts? 1500 hours ?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Heliian »

First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by munzil »

Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
I think I am starting to see the problem here.

In my day (croaky voice) we put the work in well before the license. We worked second jobs and even third jobs to pay for our licenses and living costs. So only the dedicated got a license.

It seems now from my experience most new pilots have had everything paid for. It's kinda like that new car they got that daddy bought for them. It's dinged up and a mess because they don't care for it, because it was given to them.

Maybe the same is with their careers. I agree there is an undercurrent of privilege to attitudes out there.

Maybe the solution is stop paying for kids education and
Raising them like little nancies who deserve everything. That and a 1500 hour rule and we have Aviation solved here in Canada 😎
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by goingnowherefast »

The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
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