China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[RustyDeuce]

Check your procedures gentleman. The only time a pilot at WS is required to groom is when they are travelling under the employee standby promise which is the umbrella for the "assume you'll groom."

NOWHERE in our COM / FOM etc does it require any grooming. It is also why our MEC has expected exactly 0 negotiating capitol on the matter for the first CBA. It does not exist as a condition duty nor will it exist in the CBA.

There is an expectation for pilots to groom whilst on duty from the back end and the odd other employee travelling for whatever reason. Some of us are changing that. I've had CEOs and chief pilots on many occasions as I frequently operate PSP and I do not put on gloves in front of guests. I do my flight duties and I stand politely at the front and say goodbye to guests. When all of the above is done - I'm not above pitching in and helping a bit. There are many a Dash driver or Southwest pilot that does the same.

There is also an expectation that pilots help the FAs in the morning with security checks. Again - some of us are changing that expectation one flight at a time. I'm also the guy that ropes in a few FOs to stay in the flight deck while said procedures are happening in back.

Cheers.

JJJ
Detriment to aviation for 27 years

When I travel I don't groom until the pilots groom. So thank you for your perspective.

[musicalpilotchairs]

Check your procedures gentleman. The only time a pilot at WS is required to groom is when they are travelling under the employee standby promise which is the umbrella for the "assume you'll groom."

NOWHERE in our COM / FOM etc does it require any grooming. It is also why our MEC has expected exactly 0 negotiating capitol on the matter for the first CBA. It does not exist as a condition duty nor will it exist in the CBA.

There is an expectation for pilots to groom whilst on duty from the back end and the odd other employee travelling for whatever reason. Some of us are changing that. I've had CEOs and chief pilots on many occasions as I frequently operate PSP and I do not put on gloves in front of guests. I do my flight duties and I stand politely at the front and say goodbye to guests. When all of the above is done - I'm not above pitching in and helping a bit. There are many a Dash driver or Southwest pilot that does the same.

There is also an expectation that pilots help the FAs in the morning with security checks. Again - some of us are changing that expectation one flight at a time. I'm also the guy that ropes in a few FOs to stay in the flight deck while said procedures are happening in back.

Cheers.

JJJ
Detriment to aviation for 27 years

When I travel I don't groom until the pilots groom. So thank you for your perspective.

Rusty Deuce, I would love to be there the day when the pilots are dealing with an operational issue, therefore unable to groom.
Your statement makes you sound like an idiot.

[.80@410]

Check your procedures gentleman.

JJJ
Detriment to aviation for 27 years

When I travel I don't groom until the pilots groom. So thank you for your perspective.

Then as of Dec 30, you will never groom again.
Counting the days. ..

Ps. Management and other employees can argue / fight it all they want. They are only delaying the inevitable.

Shrug..

We were once a team. Pilots are now just a necessary evil in managements’ eyes. No hard feelings. I get it.
But, don’t think you will get an ounce of free labour out of me Dec 31st ...it’s just business , right ?

[Demeter]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

[cloak]

Among the dying arts in today's world is the art of making persuasive arguments without being overtly rude and offensive. Chief among the factors must be the perceived anonymity of the internet, and a general lack of real social skills (sadly a by-product of the internet). Otherwise, why can't it be enough just to express disagreement? The clamour of an angry mob, full of passion and prejudice, and comfortable to vilify "outsiders" often in the most derisive language is a real tragedy!

[.80@410]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

that was the best you could come up with? Really?

Double down : can’t wait. Done.

[Old fella]

If I were an airline captain getting close to retirement after 30+ years I have to readily admit I would have great difficulty having to go back and groom( fancy term for cleaning up) the commercial airliner that I just flew. Be it “ implied, suggested, of great assistance,expected to do as rest are, mgt directive etc.,etc., I probably would simply refuse. No doubt I would be looked at in less than positive terms by fellow compatriots who have no difficulty performing this duty. Of course this says I would never be a suitable candidate for employment at WJ as not willing to accept their WJ culture. Having said that I have flown on WJ as had family members and service has been A+.

[ant_321]

My friend told me his whole life he had a hard time choosing between being a garbage man and a pilot, so he went to WestJet.

[sicamore]

My friend told me his whole life he had a hard time choosing between being a garbage man and a pilot, so he went to WestJet.

Funniest thing I have heard all week.

[Blue42]

Check your procedures gentleman. The only time a pilot at WS is required to groom is when they are travelling under the employee standby promise which is the umbrella for the "assume you'll groom."

NOWHERE in our COM / FOM etc does it require any grooming. It is also why our MEC has expected exactly 0 negotiating capitol on the matter for the first CBA. It does not exist as a condition duty nor will it exist in the CBA.

There is an expectation for pilots to groom whilst on duty from the back end and the odd other employee travelling for whatever reason. Some of us are changing that. I've had CEOs and chief pilots on many occasions as I frequently operate PSP and I do not put on gloves in front of guests. I do my flight duties and I stand politely at the front and say goodbye to guests. When all of the above is done - I'm not above pitching in and helping a bit. There are many a Dash driver or Southwest pilot that does the same.

There is also an expectation that pilots help the FAs in the morning with security checks. Again - some of us are changing that expectation one flight at a time. I'm also the guy that ropes in a few FOs to stay in the flight deck while said procedures are happening in back.

Cheers.

JJJ
Detriment to aviation for 27 years

What he said ^

After saying goodbye , reviewing paperwork and notams, and walk around etc .. IF there is anything left we can CHOOSE to help . Period. End of story.

But it was ok when you guys agreed to the job offer right??

[jjj]

Admittedly I did accept it as a “term” when I was hired 15 years ago. It was a much different time and not the present environment taken for granted by your typical millennial.

AC wasn’t hiring everybody and 5000 hours barely got you noticed at WestJet. That’s right kids - aviation as it is now that is handed to you on a silver platter is still very much a new thing.

Time passes and the culture changes - some for the good and some for the bad. On the good side is this enlightenment about what is required and what is not. Turns out that grooming never was.

I didn’t start this mess but I’m part of the solution.

I like the joke about the janitor above BTW.

Cheers.

JJJ

[eyebrow737]

So WestJet and Jetsgo types are out for reasons stated above.

The Swoop guys who wear gloves and undercut us all for the worst WAWCON in the industry are in.

Your position is clearly hypocritical.

FWIW - I don’t groom in front of guests.

Cheers.

JJJ

Only 27 years JJJ, you're still a youngen. If so I'm sure you don't remember the challenges we had in the 80s against air nova and Ontario iland the rest in the 80s. And all since then. Then WestJet came along and continued the fight against pilots as we saw it. You were probably all chuffed to get a job with WestJet, agreeing to the low wacon and undercutting what others worked hard for. Perspective is a funny thing isn't it.

The past 20 years as an expat has given me some view of what we are missing out here in Canada.

As to my hypocrisy, you just might have missed my poiint. It is that we have all in some way undercut our fellow pilots in advancing our career. Many have justified it and few have realized it. Some of us have even offered to do other peoples jobs all in the notion of 'helping out'

My annoyance with you and your fellow westjetters is that you all believe yourselves the good guys with no understanding that you may also have been part of the problem as well, as we all. In the end, we try to do what is good for ourselves and our families without stepping on too many people along the way.

Any fanciful notion that you are doing the best to solve the issue that you helped create (unintentionally no doubt) may seem to some to be a little sanctimonious.

[.80@410]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

Hmm I guess you succeeded in getting under my skin.


Because who in their right mind would champion working for free? Who that attaches any “value “ to their skill set would knock a co-worker who attaches value to theirs?

The idiocy of your post is mind numbing, but I guess it’s hard to come up with a logical argument for working for .. Free

[jjj]

Eyebrow,

Not a bad post.

When I started the dust had mostly settled and the new order of things was in place for a time. I could be wrong but nobody besides maybe AC and Canadian was making any money.

If I understand your inference, I see your point about just taking a job and perhaps not being cognizant that it would be harmful in the eyes of others. The difference being though if you’re drawing a parallel to views on Swoop is that they did have an alternative and they have full knowledge of harm done. They can in no way plead innocence.

WestJet slid under the radar while big blue and red were at each others throats. Lots of the guy that started at WS came from the embattled lands you speak of and despite rumour - it was better pastures. The old WS did a lot of things right in those days. Chief pilots were the tip of the spear for the pilots and less of the hammer they are today. As far as wawcon goes - nobody from that era complained.

Thanks for the perspective eyebrow. I believe your last post was forthright and a well thought out contribution to this thread. (No I am not being sarcastic.)

Cheers.

JF

[Demeter]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

Hmm I guess you succeeded in getting under my skin.


Because who in their right mind would champion working for free? Who that attaches any “value “ to their skill set would knock a co-worker who attaches value to theirs?

The idiocy of your post is mind numbing, but I guess it’s hard to come up with a logical argument for working for .. Free

Mind numbing or not!
The problem is that when people tried to boost your self-esteem, they accidentally boosted your narcissism instead. Leaving you with the highest likelihood of having unmet expectations with respect to your career and the lowest levels of satisfaction with your career at the stage that you are at. You are who you are

[Schooner69A]

"...aircraft grooming is beneath my position..."

Reminds me of my days in TC when an Inspector puffed "I didn't join Transport Canada to work week-ends" when it was suggested that there could be a TC presence at various airports around the country at other than week days.

A misplaced sense of entitlement in both cases...

[munzil]

"...aircraft grooming is beneath my position..."

Reminds me of my days in TC when an Inspector puffed "I didn't join Transport Canada to work week-ends" when it was suggested that there could be a TC presence at various airports around the country at other than week days.

A misplaced sense of entitlement in both cases...

Who are you quoting schooner? No one said that is beneath them. We have all helped cleaned the plane (or wj doublespeak) "groomed" to help out

We have all slung bags, fueled planes, hell even cleaned planes twice each day to get the salt off. All these things to help out in a crunch or part of your duties in smaller operators.

The question is if the company is forcing you to do any of these things you are taking away someone else's job just so the company can save a buck and put more money in the shareholders and execs pocket. It is plain wrong to expect people to do multiple roles in a big company that takes away others livelihoods

So, who said it was beneath them? And secondly would you accept more duties such as slinging bags, cleaning the toilet, serving passengers food etc etc as part as an airline pilots role...where does it end?.

I mean it's not beneath you right?

[Schooner69A]

No, Sir; it's not beneath me. I've replenished the commissary, bought the newspapers, ordered the lunches, summonsed the taxis, paid for the taxis, schlepped the bags, served the snacks and drinks and groomed the aircraft... Hell; for $150000 -$200000 per annum, I'd baby sit the grand kids.


There have been remarks made on this thread and others, that having to go back and cross seat belts is beneath the image of a "front ender". Now relegated to the back end, I think more highly of the crew member who participates in the clean up of the cabin during a QTA and less highly of those who think it tarnishes their image.


As I said, some folks seem to assume a sense of entitlement with the donning of a set of airline wings and an airline jacket. The pretense not wanting to do those tasks because it "...takes away someone else's job" is just smoke.

Airline pilot does not equal prima donna...

PS In the interest of full disclosure, I have never been an airline pilot. Was accepted to Air Canada in '66 but turned it down because "I didn't want to drive a bus". Thirty years later, when I found out what my airline pension would have been, I lamented that "I shoulda drove the bus..."

[munzil]

No, Sir; it's not beneath me. I've replenished the commissary, bought the newspapers, ordered the lunches, summonsed the taxis, paid for the taxis, schlepped the bags, served the snacks and drinks and groomed the aircraft... Hell; for $150000 -$200000 per annum, I'd baby sit the grand kids.


There have been remarks made on this thread and others, that having to go back and cross seat belts is beneath the image of a "front ender". Now relegated to the back end, I think more highly of the crew member who participates in the clean up of the cabin during a QTA and less highly of those who think it tarnishes their image.


As I said, some folks seem to assume a sense of entitlement with the donning of a set of airline wings and an airline jacket. The pretense not wanting to do those tasks because it "...takes away someone else's job" is just smoke.

Airline pilot does not equal prima donna...

PS In the interest of full disclosure, I have never been an airline pilot. Was accepted to Air Canada in '66 but turned it down because "I didn't want to drive a bus". Thirty years later, when I found out what my airline pension would have been, I lamented that "I shoulda drove the bus..."

You're missing the point, which you haven't answered.

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

[aerobod]

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

At WestJet grooming by employees has never been about "stealing other people's jobs", The most important reason for employee grooming is to be able to start boarding the aircraft as soon as the last guest has left, employees spread throughout the aircraft can groom while guests are leaving, as opposed to waiting for the cleaning crew to come on board when the aisle(s) is clear. Typically 5 minutes can be saved in turn time, allowing tighter departure scheduling and better OTP. Not all turns will be tightly scheduled, but enough are that 5 mins saved is important, leading to about 15 mins per day of increased utilisation per aircraft, or about 3 aircraft less needed across the whole fleet to fulfil the committed flying, with the associated saving of aircraft ownership costs of $20m per year, irrespective of any other labour cost savings. Any cost saving is important from a competitive position, so helps secure everyone's job. The aircraft are still groomed by professional cleaning crews on long segments where turn times are high and at the end of the day.

Sometimes individual employees can't see the big picture, or why things are done in a certain way, but there is often a much better reason than "the system is out to screw us" or other ludicrous conspiracy theories.