Where is this so called shortage

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
snoopythecaptain
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by snoopythecaptain »

When i was training for CPL i already saw this coming, so i saved for my instructor rating and i instructed for 6 months. When i had 500 i started to apply to jobs that used to required 1000+. And 2 weeks later i got a Medevac job northern ontario flying a pc12( you need 500+ for doing Ornge contact). Three of my co worker with 250 hrs got the same job i have but they had to do dispatcher job for 3-4 months before they go to flightline. So yes there is a pilot shortage, however it’s probably harder for 250 hrs guys to land their first job. I’ll suggest go out of your comfort zone and start meet people up north, show that you really want to be a pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ehv8oar
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:23 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

Lol I didn't mean actually building it ;)
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by co-joe »

KAG wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:46 am ...
Stop whining, get an instructor rating, the jobs will fall at your feet. Get 1000 hours then complain if you cant get a job.
KAG are you becoming a grumpy old man? I know I am, so not judging. ;)

It's easier now than it's ever been to get a job as a pilot, but that doesn't mean it's easy by any stretch of the imagination. This industry is like climbing a greased pole, and it probably always will be. You have to get out there and be stubborn, take whatever you can get and feel lucky you get anything.

IMO we will never experience and actual pilot shortage across the board at all levels, unless the US allows pilots to cross the border and work. If that glorious day ever comes, then 200 hour pilots will get jobs straight out of school.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Sabre45
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:44 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Sabre45 »

Sometimes the problem is in the Canadian attitude towards commercial aviation and pilots. In Europe, young pilots go through ab-initio programs and straight onto airlines, no ramp work required. If you join the Air Force, you will go from zero to primary flying / advanced training / heavy transport/tac-hel/fast jet . So a lot of it is about the training ethos and capability of the organization. In the rest of the World, pilots are trained to be professional pilots and fit into a professional environment from the beginning. You start to see this in Canada with 1000 or so hr pilots going to Regionals. Frankly some CP's or pilots make terrible training pilots, they lack the patience or confidence /competency to pass on appropriate knowledge. A young pilot should be allowed to fly. You want him/her to be safe, then let them fly and develop experience and competency, not have their initial skills atrophy on the docks. We all know Northern operators expect ramp time, loading and manual labour, it comes with the territory, so does below minimum wage salaries and abusive management. Its not the right way, but its the Canadian way. The trade off should be regular flying time. Young pilots getting their licenses should understand that this situation is not going to change anytime soon. It is the way it is. A young pilot can get his/her instructor rating, knock out 1000 hrs and try to shoot to regionals without northern time, which is what is happening around YYC. So it looks like pilots with some experience can bypass northern or bush work, BUT 200 hrs pilots looking for operational work? good luck. you still need to grunt it out in Canada. And you have it a lot better than in the mid 90's , you couldn't get a job if you offered to pay to clean the docks..I had to go to Africa, low pay, loading offloading 8 tons per day, but learned from senior Canadian Captains, and became proficient quickly in bush operations in challenging environments. It is what it is, but as a new pilot you are an overabundant commodity, with thousands of students being pumped out behind you, so move your rear and prepare to grunt, or get passed, its up to you. At 46 I still have no issues in helping loading aircraft, cleaning, general maintenance duties, helping clients etc. because it is part of the job in operational companies in Northern Canada, ruck up and get it done.
---------- ADS -----------
 
homesick
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:45 am
Location: Where the streets have no names

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by homesick »

Don't sell yourself short by going the way of the ramp. Those who did were just cheap whores who conveniently claim that that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I really can't differentiate between them and someone paying for their type rating. Call it tomayto or tomahto.

And please don't let these self proclaimed sky gods tell you that you are or will be a burden in the flight deck. We all started at hour zero and we all had captains who led and guided us through those first few hundred/thousand hours till we got our bearings right.

Unfortunately there really is no shortage. What there is is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to accept the piss poor TnCs that Canadian operators are willing to fork out for our knowledge and experience.

Good luck in your hunt for that elusive first job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Screw you hippies!!!!
bcflyer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1304
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Canada

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by bcflyer »

snoopythecaptain wrote: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am When i was training for CPL i already saw this coming, so i saved for my instructor rating and i instructed for 6 months. When i had 500 i started to apply to jobs that used to required 1000+. And 2 weeks later i got a Medevac job northern ontario flying a pc12( you need 500+ for doing Ornge contact). Three of my co worker with 250 hrs got the same job i have but they had to do dispatcher job for 3-4 months before they go to flightline. So yes there is a pilot shortage, however it’s probably harder for 250 hrs guys to land their first job. I’ll suggest go out of your comfort zone and start meet people up north, show that you really want to be a pilot.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. If you need 500hrs to fly for Ornge how did your friends with 250 hrs get the same job? They may have worked as dispatchers for 3-4 months but still don’t meet the requirements...
---------- ADS -----------
 
rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2858
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by rigpiggy »

During my time at CYYC I noticed some elitist, smug pilots who would look down their noses at anyone who wasn’t a pilot like them (as if their role was so much more important than anyone else at the airport) and I noticed plenty of pilots who were the exact opposite. I was shocked at several Westjet pilots between 2000 and 2003 who would come outside onto the ramp and help load bags to minimize delays on the loaded flights while talking and joking around with rampies.

I used to do this in yyz, I would be grieved by some F#$@ that wasn't even working the flight.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

rigpiggy wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:31 am During my time at CYYC I noticed some elitist, smug pilots who would look down their noses at anyone who wasn’t a pilot like them (as if their role was so much more important than anyone else at the airport) and I noticed plenty of pilots who were the exact opposite. I was shocked at several Westjet pilots between 2000 and 2003 who would come outside onto the ramp and help load bags to minimize delays on the loaded flights while talking and joking around with rampies.

I used to do this in yyz, I would be grieved by some F#$@ that wasn't even working the flight.
I got SMS'd once for assisting the ground crew with a GPU engine start. I was proud of that SMS report :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2858
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by rigpiggy »

ya me too
---------- ADS -----------
 
Laguardia
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

I started this topic mainly to talk about these misleading articles and I realize I should've explained my self better, although I did anticipate all the backlash.

News articles talking about pilot shortages will continue to exist for a long time to come because the people writing them probably don't know much about aviation and are going off based on stats and what they have heard from around the industry (for the most part).

Why I was and am so frustrated is the misinformation of these articles and the fact that the general public is grossly mislead by them all. 90% of the general population doesn't have a single clue what it a) takes to become a pilot and b) what pilots in Canada have to put up with to get to the big boys. Most people think that when pilots spend tens of thousands of dollars on their flight training, they get a job flying a plane that doesn't pay 30,000 a year at a regional carrier

I cannot tell you how many peoples jaws drop and they remain in disbelief when I tell them what my friends had to put up with for several years working the ramp and making no money, or when I tell them the kind of money Georgian or Jazz first officers make in their first year or some of the hours and conditions that are being worked at northern operators (while making no money). Most of these people tell me that this ramp thing is a load of BS and ask me why on earth I became a pilot if i knew this was the case. Some of them do say that if the ramp is the way in (much like how many echo the same sentiment here) then to do it. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they agree with it.

I wasn't lying to them, I was simply rehearsing what I've read on this forum and what my friends and old instructors who have worked up north and for these companies have told me.

Do fresh pilots have to work the ramp and do their time to get that first flying job in a Navajo, king air, 208 Caravan or whatever the plane may be? Unfortunately, yes

Is it correct for pilots to spend so much money to earn their wings, only to slave away like a dog just so they can get that golden cookie at the end (that being your first flying job). No, but again, people beg to differ

Does it build character and work ethic? I personally don't think so, but clearly a lot of people beg to differ

Does it help that now there are a million articles saying there is a severe pilot shortage, especially in Canada? No. These articles are misleading and there needs to be light shinned on the truth. There is or isn't a pilot shortage, because....

At the end of the day, I know I won't change the aviation industry, but if opening up a topic like this can shine some form of light upon the situation, then at least that's a step in the right direction in my opinion.

For all those saying suck it up, this is the industry, you have to put your time in and work the ramp to show your character and work ethic blah blah or else go cry to your mom... Yea, you guys are absolutely right, that is the case and I do have to suck it up and stop crying about it (unfortunately and sadly).

I apparently don't have the right to say that this is wrong because somehow I am entitled brat with 300 hours (not sure why being upset at the current situation makes me an entitled brat). While in some regards it may have come across wrong in many different ways, I stick by what I said. Working the ramp means absolutely nothing when it comes to work ethic or character building (ever heard of fake it till you make it?)... this ramp thing really only seems to exist in Canada, while the rest of the world seems to be hiring pilots right out of flight school or their requirements aren't as stringent at the smaller operators.

Europe has been hiring pilots fresh out of flight school for some time now, but Europe's training is one of the most stringent I have ever seen. 14 very hard exams of which you have a bank of 15000 questions to study from, and flight tests which are harder then ours from my understanding. I have looked over the European CPL and ATPL material, it makes the SAMRA and SARON look like an absolute joke... and then captains at 703 and 704 carriers wonder why they have to baby 250 hours fresh FOs who haven't touched a plane or read up on any material probably for the last year because they were too busy trying to keep their morale up while taking the garbage out or cleaning the carpet of a plane

I am sorry to all of you old (or young) who had to put up with a ramp job up north and then needed crazy amounts of hours to fly a Navajo or King air. I understand many pilots have had to endure and suffer many years of making crap money and being subjected to physical and mental stress and just crap working conditions,just to get into a large 705 carrier and finally start making a livable wage.

But, that's not my fault and me saying working the ramp is not right and there are other methods for fresh pilots to get the first flying job DOES NOT make me entitled or a little brat. Just because you had to go through it doesn't mean I have to endure the same suffering. Once again, not mine or any other new pilot's fault so please don't take it out on us and throw us all under the entitled category just because some of us are trying to hold out hope for a better day and maybe not have to work ramp.

The closest analogy I can think of is someone saying you have to do it the old way, which means taking much longer and being a lot more inefficient, then doing it the new way, just because they are bitter and sour that they didn't have that option available to them back in the day, so now they have to force it upon the younger generation so they can feel the old generations pain. While the option part of this analogy hasn't changed a whole lot, it has gotten somewhat better and broader, hence why I said this is the closest type of analogy I can think of at the moment.

I would normally say i'm sorry for appearing to come off as entitled, but I really don't think I am. I am just pointing out my frustration and that may have given the wrong impression to some. As I said above, I understand that at some point or another I will have to accept the reality that the ramp job still exists and that it is more or the less the sure thing to get a right seat job somewhere, even if it's not right for employers to do so. The only other options are to instruct or to literally get lucky and get a right seat job off the bat... while I have read people here managing to do just that (getting a right seat job right away) those were far a few between and clearly I wasn't one of them, and I wasn't and still am not ready to accept a ramp job.

The only other way for things to change is for all new fresh pilots to stop accepting ramp positions, but that is almost impossible and me doing so on my own will just make me look like an idiot and fall behind while others get that ramp job and then right seat, like many have pointed out. To all those who said something along those lines, I agree and I accept my fate.

Maybe someday in the future I will be accept a ramp job, maybe when I will be ready to take the financial hit and be mentally prepared to deal with BS and move away to the middle of nowhere, but for now I am not and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Unfortunate and sad like I said, but I must accept the reality of the situation





I'll leave it at this... go to a random person on the street, and tell them how much money it takes to become a pilot, on top of the fact that it's not that easy and it involves having other peoples lives in your hand (at some point or another). Then tell them what you have to go through to get to that big 705 carrier and actually start making a decent wage... and take a look at their reaction and see what they say. I bet, like I said above, 90% of people will be shocked. Now does that seem normal?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Laguardia on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
flyingcanuck
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:55 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by flyingcanuck »

Well said, I agree with you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Good article here
http://www.askthepilot.com/pilot-shortage/
Even better comment section
---------- ADS -----------
 
shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Oh my god LaGuardia, all this talk of "suffering" and "accepting my fate" and you've not even started your career. I'm sorry, but just because you don't feel like you're acting entitled doesn't mean you aren't. Look, there are at least a couple of currently incontrovertible realities about starting out in aviation in this country. First, like it or not, and regardless of it's merits or lack thereof, working the ramp is a pretty sure fire way to start. (And luckily for you, it doesn't take nearly as long these days and the working conditions and pay are way better than ever before.) Second, is that there are still options to skip the ramp and get directly into the cockpit of small airplanes to gain valuable time and experience, and even make some decent money in the process. Outside of instructing, these are the ways in which you can work your way towards your dream job. Presumably you knew this from the get go. If those options represent too much "suffering" for you that's fine, but don't complain that your goals are out of reach. Obtaining your CPL is neither a huge accomplishment nor the end of the effort required to have a successful career. Whinging about not being handed your goals without having to work for them is the very definition of entitlement.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Laguardia
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

shimmydampner wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:59 pm Oh my god LaGuardia, all this talk of "suffering" and "accepting my fate" and you've not even started your career. I'm sorry, but just because you don't feel like you're acting entitled doesn't mean you aren't. Look, there are at least a couple of currently incontrovertible realities about starting out in aviation in this country. First, like it or not, and regardless of it's merits or lack thereof, working the ramp is a pretty sure fire way to start. (And luckily for you, it doesn't take nearly as long these days and the working conditions and pay are way better than ever before.) Second, is that there are still options to skip the ramp and get directly into the cockpit of small airplanes to gain valuable time and experience, and even make some decent money in the process. Outside of instructing, these are the ways in which you can work your way towards your dream job. Presumably you knew this from the get go. If those options represent too much "suffering" for you that's fine, but don't complain that your goals are out of reach. Obtaining your CPL is neither a huge accomplishment nor the end of the effort required to have a successful career. Whinging about not being handed your goals without having to work for them is the very definition of entitlement.
I stand by what I said in my last post. If a bunch of pilots on a forum want to judge me based on that and call me entitled, then go right ahead, I'm not going to lose any sleep over some forum comments from random people who don't know me. I already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject

I won't be replying anymore because I have nothing more to say and it's very clear what people's positions here are
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

The ugly truth is that there is no shortage of entry level pilots in Canada, and if you don’t make some sacrifices for that elusive first job your peers will pass you by.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mixturerich
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by mixturerich »

Laguardia wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:30 pm already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject
I agree with a lot of things you say. But I find it ironic that you are “losing time” by writing posts when really you are losing time by not finding a quicker job. You’re losing time while your peers pass you by. And in an industry where seniority is paramount, this could bite you very hard. What are you doing with your time right now that’s so important?

You say you’re not going to reply anymore, which sounds like you can’t take take the heat and criticism, which is too bad, because like everyone you will had bad rides, make mistakes, and have captains tear you a new one, so I hope you have a tougher skin that that, because you’re gonna need it.

I also want to add that there are a lot of small operators out there where you will do some of the most amazing, fun, interesting, dynamic, experiential flying and will have the best times flying of your entire career. Some of those have a ramp job entry to get to them. So you’re nissing out on a lot of excellent flying because of your stubbornness.

It also frankly sounds like you don’t actually want to be a pilot that badly. You have to REALLY want it, because there is a lot more bullshit in this industry than just working a ramp job for half a year. I hope you don’t turn out to be a know-it-all FO, or a lazy pilot afraid to go the extra mile.

Just trying to help light a fire under your ass.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ekg
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:56 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ekg »

A more optimistic perspective:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/i5aE97LGgOw[/youtube]

Not sure how much of that is true for Canadian aviation. Regardless it's clear that the career is only for those that really want it
---------- ADS -----------
 
Laguardia
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

mixturerich wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:08 am
Laguardia wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:30 pm already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject
I agree with a lot of things you say. But I find it ironic that you are “losing time” by writing posts when really you are losing time by not finding a quicker job. You’re losing time while your peers pass you by. And in an industry where seniority is paramount, this could bite you very hard. What are you doing with your time right now that’s so important?

You say you’re not going to reply anymore, which sounds like you can’t take take the heat and criticism, which is too bad, because like everyone you will had bad rides, make mistakes, and have captains tear you a new one, so I hope you have a tougher skin that that, because you’re gonna need it.

I also want to add that there are a lot of small operators out there where you will do some of the most amazing, fun, interesting, dynamic, experiential flying and will have the best times flying of your entire career. Some of those have a ramp job entry to get to them. So you’re nissing out on a lot of excellent flying because of your stubbornness.

It also frankly sounds like you don’t actually want to be a pilot that badly. You have to REALLY want it, because there is a lot more bullshit in this industry than just working a ramp job for half a year. I hope you don’t turn out to be a know-it-all FO, or a lazy pilot afraid to go the extra mile.

Just trying to help light a fire under your ass.
I guess when I said I'm not going to reply it was directly to the people who just want to throw out labels at me when they don't know me at all and are basing it off 2 posts I made.

You're actually bang on with everything you said. I genuinely agree with you and appreciate your post. I am losing time, day by day... going to my monday to friday job isn't doing me any good either other then earning a solid income.I know I can survive off what a rampie makes, and then what an FO would make, I just need to finally decide it's time to make that move before I get too old and it's too late. A lot of my friends and family have been trying to light a fire under my ass too, which is why when I used the term "accept my fate" I meant that I need to get my shit together and just go for it or accept my stubbornness and forget about it all together.

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
 
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ant_321 »

There is certainly no shortage of 250hr wonders but if my LinkedIn inbox is any indication there is certainly a shortage in Canada and abroad. I usually get 3-5 emails a day from recruiters. Some great opportunities others not. P.S. if anyone knows a Georgian or Porter recruiter can you ask them to leave me alone!?
---------- ADS -----------
 
ajet32
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:57 pm
Location: YYC

Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ajet32 »

There is a shortage just not as some have mentioned in Canada. I have flown is Asia, Europe and the Middle East often training new FO's right out of the simulator with 200-250 hours.They are starting on say a CRJ1000 or some other similar jet/turboprop. B737,A320 ATR42/72. In SE Asia and the Middle East there is little or no General Aviation so pilots either pay or are bonded for years to train for that seat. In Indonesia at Garuda it was an 11year bond/training contract. At the competitor you paid your type training and licence and went straight to a B737 A320. These young men and women did fine in the professional environment. In a way they didn't have any bad habits that had to be forgotten they learned what the company SOP said to do from the beginning. There theory knowledge was better than many of us and with time there hands and feet caught up to the rest of the program.
It's a very different system than ours and it works for them. There have been a few spectacular crashes in SE Asia but we have our share of complete FUBAR's here at home. not sure which system is better.
If you should perhaps land at Dubai World Central you will see lines of B777-200/300's belonging to Emirates parked because they are short crew. They are not the only international Flag carrier with aircraft parked due to lack of crew. I went through Istanbul and many other European airports the past year and many aircraft under utilized due to lack of crew.
The Canadian market is unique and it's unfortunate that the pay is overall so far behind international levels. Oh it's a great place to live I agree and coming home is awesome. Then I talk to someone about B737 jobs and hear things like $96,000 for a Captain and $55,000 for and FO. In Canadian dollars. Need to get with the times.
Get that first 500-1000 hours of large aircraft time and the world is truly your oyster. A lot of great flying opportunities out there a friend of mine just made Captain on the B787 at 36. Left Canada about 506 years ago spent a bit of tie in the "sandbox " now in Europe. All a question of priorities and lifestyle/s.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”