Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Actually making it to and past that illusive first job
Could that be because the requirements to be a pilot are so low there is always a glut of licensed pilots looking for that first job?
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Zaibatsu » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:33 pm

I paint my own house and rotate my own tires because I’m saving my money.

You’re grooming the cabin to save the owners and shareholders money. I don’t think that the whole “owners care” BS really works for Team Teal anymore.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:01 pm

The question of grooming the airplane is really academic.

If you feel you should not have to groom the airplane don't work there.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sicamore » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:58 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:01 pm
The question of grooming the airplane is really academic.

If you feel you should not have to groom the airplane don't work there.
One could argue that airlines charging for ratings is academic as well until all airlines start doing it.

Or maybe pay to fly like in other parts of the world god forbid. They all started with just one company doing it.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:03 pm

One could argue that airlines charging for ratings is academic as well until all airlines start doing it.

Or maybe pay to fly like in other parts of the world god forbid. They all started with just one company doing it.
That is true.

However the choice to do any of these things still rests with the individual.

It is driven by supply and demand.

As long as becoming a professional pilot remains so easy it is unlikely things will change.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sicamore » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:16 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:03 pm
One could argue that airlines charging for ratings is academic as well until all airlines start doing it.

Or maybe pay to fly like in other parts of the world god forbid. They all started with just one company doing it.
That is true.

However the choice to do any of these things still rests with the individual.

It is driven by supply and demand.

As long as becoming a professional pilot remains so easy it is unlikely things will change.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years. Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating

I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 pm

If you think that a 737 Captain or First Officer should clean planes, you need to travel a bit more and see the world. Get that 703 mentality or whatever PTSD you may be experiencing due to your previous abuse as a small time pilot and get in line with the rest of the world. Spare me the "What about paying for a type rating?" argument. No real airline (Lufthansa, KLM, BA, SAS, Swiss) will ask you to pay for the type rating.

PILOTS SHOULD NOT CLEAN PLANES, EXCEPT THE AREA WHERE THEY WORKED.... (Your cockpit seat)
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm

I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by BE02 Driver » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:08 am

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:29 am
BE02 Driver wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:27 am
Hating on other for going about their job in a different fashion is obtuse.
Image
That's actually pretty funny. Thanks for the laugh.

In quick response to all of the above from both you and eyebrow.

I do not Infact drink the kool-aid of Clive & Co. I would prefer if pilots didn't groom at WestJet. But at the same time I'm not above being asked to do things in the interest in saving money, because I'm both not a hypocrite (I save money at every opportunity myself, as do most financially conscious people, and corporations) and two, I try my best to by humble. Despite Eyebrow thinking that I am a trust fund baby that happened in to a pilots licence (seems to be the go to insult on this forum by over entitled pilots) that couldn't be further from the truth. I, like many of my peers and many pilots on this forum have paid my debt in full to this country, so that people can bitch and moan about how good they have it without ever having know the plight of many others in our own country and around the world.

As someone else has pointed out, there is no specific requirements to be a pilot. It's essentially a skilled trade. Which is why our profession isn't recognised with NAFTA visas. Just about anyone with a little bit of aptitude and some spare change can become a pilot. I think it's time for some people to get off their high horse. Its not money, or lack of grooming that will make you happy. Maybe a change in attitude will give you the happiness that you seek in life.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Anticyclone » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:49 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 pm
If you think that a 737 Captain or First Officer should clean planes, you need to travel a bit more and see the world. Get that 703 mentality or whatever PTSD you may be experiencing due to your previous abuse as a small time pilot and get in line with the rest of the world. Spare me the "What about paying for a type rating?" argument. No real airline (Lufthansa, KLM, BA, SAS, Swiss) will ask you to pay for the type rating.

PILOTS SHOULD NOT CLEAN PLANES, EXCEPT THE AREA WHERE THEY WORKED.... (Your cockpit seat)
Absolutely bro in addition to that if the company is going thru though time i dont mind taking a pay cut as long as everybody else does but what we are seeing right now is the operators are making more profits for themselves on our back coz the fares are not going down. :smt078
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Lightchop » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
Chuck it's not 1956 anymore.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Lightchop » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:28 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 pm


PILOTS SHOULD NOT CLEAN PLANES, EXCEPT THE AREA WHERE THEY WORKED.... (Your cockpit seat)
Which let's be honest never happens. Pilots are disgusting and I always spend a few min disinfecting the flight deck when I take a new tail.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by PT6onH20 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:37 am

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
Chuck it's not 1956 anymore.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Captain S itmagnet » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:02 am

Once upon a time not so long ago we had 40 minutes between flights at our hub. That allowed some time to help out at the back. Now maybe (if we are on time) it’s 20. Somewhere in that 20 I need to get a release, reload the printer when it fails, maybe chat with dispatch about the MEL item due to the last minute tail change, and tend to really important stuff like buy the crew our morning coffee and take a leak. Not unusual to hear the simulataneous gate change and preboard announcement as I go to get the paperwork. Oh yeah I’m expected to read and absorb the 12 pages while retrieving our gear for the tail change.
So no, not anymore. Not for a few years. Take your pick of what you think My priorities are.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 am

Chuck it's not 1956 anymore.
I was relating how I started flying and I am aware it in not 1956 anymore.

Do you really think I have no idea about the airplanes you fly and the the environment you fly them in?
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by ant_321 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:54 am

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
Chuck it's not 1956 anymore.
With the exception of big red I don’t think it’s changed with regards to education. I have made it into the left seat of a 737 and have never been asked about my education. All I have is a high school diploma. Finished high school and did my training at a ma and pa shop in 10 months and went to work.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm

With the exception of big red I don’t think it’s changed with regards to education. I have made it into the left seat of a 737 and have never been asked about my education. All I have is a high school diploma. Finished high school and did my training at a ma and pa shop in 10 months and went to work.
Exactly, no one ever asked me how much education I had, what they were interested in was my flying history.

I can't think of another occupation where one can earn as much money as you can flying that has such low entry level requirements and can be done in as short a time frame as flying..
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Lightchop » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:34 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 am
Chuck it's not 1956 anymore.

Do you really think I have no idea about the airplanes you fly and the the environment you fly them in?
I know you mean well Chuck but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Mostly Harmless » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:03 am

Wrong argument

On a quick 1 hour flight where the only thing served is bits and bites and a beverage, the plane does not have time to get dirty. So a crew grooming is not a burden. However, when doing 3 to 7 hour legs, serving boxed food, hot food and several beverage services, the plane becomes a dump (this is something all the residents of North America should be ashamed of because they can't be bothered to use the garbage receptacles supplied or even hand it to the people who regularly come by and ask them if they have any garbage to take it away... no we would all rather sit in our own filth pile like Oscar on a plane). At this point, the plane should be cleaned by a team with the time and tools and who are paid to the job right so that the next person sitting in that seat gets a clean seat to sit in for the next flight. So you know that the table tray someone changed a diaper on was wiped down, the crushed cookies and pretzels are vacuumed up and the seat pockets don't have used needles in them.

This is about providing a safe and clean environment to the paying customer.

I wonder if they factor in the sick days they pay out to flight crew for all the snotty tissues and other dangers encountered by the crew when grooming? Does it really save money when you factor in all the costs?
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:30 am

I know you mean well Chuck but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
I retired from aviation in 2005 and my last flight was jumpseat back from Holland in a KLM MD-11 using my Airfrance Pilot ID card.

The airplanes you people are flying have have not really changed much since then and the IFR procedures and the structure of the airways and instrument approaches are still basically the same so if I am " really " disconnected from flying can you give me some hints in how disconnected I am?
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by pianokeys » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:35 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:30 am
I know you mean well Chuck but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
I retired from aviation in 2005 and my last flight was jumpseat back from Holland in a KLM MD-11 using my Airfrance Pilot ID card.

The airplanes you people are flying have have not really changed much since then and the IFR procedures and the structure of the airways and instrument approaches are still basically the same so if I am " really " disconnected from flying can you give me some hints in how disconnected I am?
If youve been retired for over ten years now, you havent missed much. We just added GPS to the entire narrow body fleet like last week. So...

I think what people are trying to say that is although learning to fly is easy, especially if you enjoy it, that the cost of learning has increased astronomically and the ease of getting a job is slim to none thanks to a swath of low time pilots all in an industry that has shifted its focus to the "race to the bottom" mentality forcing the change of the job description a pilot had (ie, ramp, grooming) to something that is cost sensitive, making it not as lucrative or more importantly, practical.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:15 am

I think what people are trying to say that is although learning to fly is easy, especially if you enjoy it, that the cost of learning has increased astronomically and the ease of getting a job is slim to none thanks to a swath of low time pilots all in an industry that has shifted its focus to the "race to the bottom" mentality forcing the change of the job description a pilot had (ie, ramp, grooming) to something that is cost sensitive, making it not as lucrative or more importantly, practical.

Exactly, and the supply of young pilots lining up for these jobs is endless.

Supply and demand is what is keeping the working conditions and pay so low.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Old fella » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:59 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
Ah.... The Road Not Taken by Frost best suited for your personna old chap. The very best in the years ahead.
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm

When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
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Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sicamore » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:02 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
This is still the case in Australia and New Zealand along with a number of other countries. Also the CAA before turning to JAA. Nothing to write home about.
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