Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: Sulako, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia

ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by ant_321 »

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:27 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
. it's not 1956 anymore.
With the exception of big red I don’t think it’s changed with regards to education. I have made it into the left seat of a 737 and have never been asked about my education. All I have is a high school diploma. Finished high school and did my training at a ma and pa shop in 10 months and went to work.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. »

With the exception of big red I don’t think it’s changed with regards to education. I have made it into the left seat of a 737 and have never been asked about my education. All I have is a high school diploma. Finished high school and did my training at a ma and pa shop in 10 months and went to work.
Exactly, no one ever asked me how much education I had, what they were interested in was my flying history.

I can't think of another occupation where one can earn as much money as you can flying that has such low entry level requirements and can be done in as short a time frame as flying..
---------- ADS -----------
  

Lightchop
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Lightchop »

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 am
. it's not 1956 anymore.

Do you really think I have no idea about the airplanes you fly and the the environment you fly them in?
I know you mean well . but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Wrong argument

On a quick 1 hour flight where the only thing served is bits and bites and a beverage, the plane does not have time to get dirty. So a crew grooming is not a burden. However, when doing 3 to 7 hour legs, serving boxed food, hot food and several beverage services, the plane becomes a dump (this is something all the residents of North America should be ashamed of because they can't be bothered to use the garbage receptacles supplied or even hand it to the people who regularly come by and ask them if they have any garbage to take it away... no we would all rather sit in our own filth pile like Oscar on a plane). At this point, the plane should be cleaned by a team with the time and tools and who are paid to the job right so that the next person sitting in that seat gets a clean seat to sit in for the next flight. So you know that the table tray someone changed a diaper on was wiped down, the crushed cookies and pretzels are vacuumed up and the seat pockets don't have used needles in them.

This is about providing a safe and clean environment to the paying customer.

I wonder if they factor in the sick days they pay out to flight crew for all the snotty tissues and other dangers encountered by the crew when grooming? Does it really save money when you factor in all the costs?
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. »

I know you mean well . but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
I retired from aviation in 2005 and my last flight was jumpseat back from Holland in a KLM MD-11 using my Airfrance Pilot ID card.

The airplanes you people are flying have have not really changed much since then and the IFR procedures and the structure of the airways and instrument approaches are still basically the same so if I am " really " disconnected from flying can you give me some hints in how disconnected I am?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
pianokeys
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by pianokeys »

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:30 am
I know you mean well . but sometimes it feels like you are really disconnected from the current reality of things. I don't hold it against you since I realize you haven't been active in the airline industry in a long time.
I retired from aviation in 2005 and my last flight was jumpseat back from Holland in a KLM MD-11 using my Airfrance Pilot ID card.

The airplanes you people are flying have have not really changed much since then and the IFR procedures and the structure of the airways and instrument approaches are still basically the same so if I am " really " disconnected from flying can you give me some hints in how disconnected I am?
If youve been retired for over ten years now, you havent missed much. We just added GPS to the entire narrow body fleet like last week. So...

I think what people are trying to say that is although learning to fly is easy, especially if you enjoy it, that the cost of learning has increased astronomically and the ease of getting a job is slim to none thanks to a swath of low time pilots all in an industry that has shifted its focus to the "race to the bottom" mentality forcing the change of the job description a pilot had (ie, ramp, grooming) to something that is cost sensitive, making it not as lucrative or more importantly, practical.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. »

I think what people are trying to say that is although learning to fly is easy, especially if you enjoy it, that the cost of learning has increased astronomically and the ease of getting a job is slim to none thanks to a swath of low time pilots all in an industry that has shifted its focus to the "race to the bottom" mentality forcing the change of the job description a pilot had (ie, ramp, grooming) to something that is cost sensitive, making it not as lucrative or more importantly, practical.

Exactly, and the supply of young pilots lining up for these jobs is endless.

Supply and demand is what is keeping the working conditions and pay so low.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2030
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Old fella »

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm
I would like to reply to this by giving my experience in becoming a pilot.
Easy? Maybe for you? I got a degree and worked as an engineer for many years.
It was easy because I really enjoyed getting the license and never considered it anything except fun.

When I started my education level was grade eight and I was driving a delivery truck for a living and also to pay for my training, however I did work at the flying school as a mechanics helper in exchange for flying time and in the end fixing them was more rewarding than flying them and it still is.
Getting my license, building my hours and working my way up took considerably longer, more money, harder to get jobs and even more elbow grease at the beginning, not to mention far more fuatrating
As I have already said it took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get the licenses at the start of my career but once I had the license I had the right contact to get a job flying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario spraying tobacco which not only was my first real flying job but the best flying job I ever had.
I was paid far more in the office right from the star and I can tell you no one expected us to change the trash at the beginning of the day.
The only job I had outside of flying when I was young was driving trucks, which I did for years during the times the flying jobs were not available.

As to pay I never had to work for poor pay because I only flew in specialised fields that payed reasonably well.

Bottom line was becoming a pilot was not all that hard to get into especially for someone like me who had limited formal education.
Ah.... The Road Not Taken by Frost best suited for your personna old chap. The very best in the years ahead.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. »

When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
---------- ADS -----------
  

sicamore
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:08 am

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sicamore »

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
This is still the case in Australia and New Zealand along with a number of other countries. Also the CAA before turning to JAA. Nothing to write home about.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by C.W.E. »

Nothing to write home about.
My mentioning the issue of hand writing the answers was merely to point out that T.C. has made passing the exams easier.

Which helps contribute to the imbalance of jobs to licensed pilots thus low wages.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sampsonmcd
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:59 am

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by sampsonmcd »

CBC Marketplace is even investigating how dirty AC/WJ/Porter are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZUVbQrVZIU
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Anticyclone
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:50 am
Location: Nothern Hemisphere

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Anticyclone »

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 pm
When I wrote the exams for the ATPL the answers were all hand written and were marked based on what you actually knew as shown in your hand written answers, in today's world you have the multiple choice crutch to help you.

Here is the airplane that was used in the exam.

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... 049_en.php
WOW Constellation youre lucky mate.. i cant say i go back that much but I managed to use the loran C, bottom line guys "What you sow you reap" as long as we have guys begging for jobs they can make whatever they want with us and sooner or later they will ask the toilets to be cleaned, for God sake they have more people on their waiting list then IKEA store opening. :prayer:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Airbrake
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:50 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Airbrake »

https://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/m_episod ... e-surfaces


I guess it doesn’t matter who does the cleaning. No one is doing it well.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Anticyclone
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:50 am
Location: Nothern Hemisphere

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Anticyclone »

Airbrake wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:50 pm

I guess it doesn’t matter who does the cleaning. No one is doing it well.
In fact in does matter as these long cleaning hours spent by the crews are taken away from flight preparation so its a bloody safety issue, its a latent threat that is yet to say its name.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by rookiepilot »

Sit on the blanket (to soften today's rock hard seats).

About what it's fit for.

Use own fleece for blanket.

Consider tray like touching toxic waste.

Airplanes or a city bus?

No difference except length of travel.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gino Under
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Gino Under »

I’d never offer my services to an airline that expected me to cross seat belts, collect garbage, or throw out puke bags as part of my job. Not even as an “owner”. That’s not a pilot’s job and it isn’t anywhere within his/her area of responsibility. It’s got nothing to do with being above my dignity or beneath my dignity. Pilots should be focused on flight plans, fuel requirements, enroute and forecast weather, not to mention meeting ridiculous 25 minute turnaround times their cheap employer expects of them.
We may not all agree on this stupidity, so whatever floats yer boat. This BS stops when professional pilots say it does.
Gino
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by complexintentions »

Some contradictory arguments. On the one hand it's "easy" to become a pilot, at the same time there's an "endless supply of young pilots competing for jobs"...which to me, means...not easy to become a professional (ie, paid) pilot...?

Which is it? Hard or easy? In 2018, not 50 years ago, or 50 years from now.

Also, obtaining a pilot's license is not the same as becoming a professional pilot. And I don't think either are "easy". For the license, the educational requirements may present a low barrier to entry, but the costs most certainly do not. And as far as gaining employment, ideally to a place in the industry where the pay and lifestyle are satisfactory, sorry, but for the vast majority I would hardly describe that as "easy".

Oh, yeah. Cleaning. I won't do it. Ever. Not because I'm too "good" for it, but because my time is worth too much now to make it worth my while, and my employer agrees. But it took a lot of years to get to this place. And that's really the core of the argument - pilots grooming planes only serves to illustrate that they are not valuing their time sufficiently, nor is their employer. Never mind what it says to the traveling public.

Not sure why people argue in favour of it, but then again most pilots in Canada seem to have pretty low self-esteem.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

User avatar
Blueontop
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:01 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by Blueontop »

First thing, lets ignore for a moment what our opinion as pilots is regarding grooming aircraft in between turns. Let’s look at it from the perspective of John Q flying public and ask the average person on the street if they think their pilots clean the aircraft. Most ppl are surprised to learn that pilots can be required to clean the aircraft during turns. This shows to me that it is not considered a duty of pilots to be expected to clean and groom an aircraft by the average passenger.

Secondly, I’ve read the entire thread and have yet to read which operations actually require the pilots to groom the aircraft besides WT. It’s only been a debate on the principle of pilots grooming instead of answering the OPs question. Perhaps the OPs question can actually be answered as I’m interested in knowing as well.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fayuyang
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Which Canadian Airlines expect their Flight Deck Crew to also be Cabin Groomers?

Post by fayuyang »

agree 100%
HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 pm
If you think that a 737 Captain or First Officer should clean planes, you need to travel a bit more and see the world. Get that 703 mentality or whatever PTSD you may be experiencing due to your previous abuse as a small time pilot and get in line with the rest of the world. Spare me the "What about paying for a type rating?" argument. No real airline (Lufthansa, KLM, BA, SAS, Swiss) will ask you to pay for the type rating.

PILOTS SHOULD NOT CLEAN PLANES, EXCEPT THE AREA WHERE THEY WORKED.... (Your cockpit seat)
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”