Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

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BigQ
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by BigQ »

1st black box found
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pelmet
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by pelmet »

"An Indonesian safety official has confirmed the Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 that crashed Oct. 29 had unreliable airspeed readings on its previous flight."

http://atwonline.com/safety/official-pr ... -737-max-8

Unknown if the accident pilots were aware of what happened on the previous flight. But if the journey log has an unreliable airspeed entry, it might be an idea to carefully review what to do if it turns out that it was not fixed properly.

I have had a couple of bad airspeed scenarios due to water in the static system on a twin Cessna but on VFR flights where a quick pull of the alternate static solved the problem. Still, the first time it happened I had near normal airspeed until liftoff and then it seriously lagged resulting in me flying out much more shallow than normal until it was figured out.
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FL007
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by FL007 »

pelmet wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:15 pm "An Indonesian safety official has confirmed the Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 that crashed Oct. 29 had unreliable airspeed readings on its previous flight."

http://atwonline.com/safety/official-pr ... -737-max-8

Unknown if the accident pilots were aware of what happened on the previous flight. But if the journey log has an unreliable airspeed entry, it might be an idea to carefully review what to do if it turns out that it was not fixed properly.

I have had a couple of bad airspeed scenarios due to water in the static system on a twin Cessna but on VFR flights where a quick pull of the alternate static solved the problem. Still, the first time it happened I had near normal airspeed until liftoff and then it seriously lagged resulting in me flying out much more shallow than normal until it was figured out.
The likelihood is they had a blocked pitot system somehow. That would have affected their AS indicator and hopefully had a call on depatrue noting the discrepancy of airspeed on takeoff.

Really what would solve this is knowledge of power setting and pitch attitude.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Eric Janson »

FL007 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:25 pm
Really what would solve this is knowledge of power setting and pitch attitude.
There's a QRH procedure which has to be followed in this situation.

In the airbus the first part are recall items done from memory.

I'm sure someone who flies Boeing can advise what their QRH procedures are. Probably very similar.

Basically it's disabling the automatics, removing the Flight Director bar(s) and flying Pitch/Power to level off at at safe altitude.

I normally write the Pitch/Power for level flight for the take-off configuration and for clean configuration on the back of the flightplan as a quick reference. I also know what pitch power to set for my aircraft in high altitude cruise so that the aircraft will fly safely while problems are sorted out.

A really nice feature on the airbus is the "Emergeny Cancel" pushbutton which will instantly silence all aural warnings and extinguish the warning and caution lights so you can focus on flying the aircraft.

I'm sure the investigation will reveal what was done in the cockpit.
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complexintentions
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by complexintentions »

Yeah, Boeing's QRH does have stock power/pitch settings for "Unreliable Airspeed", and they're memory items as well.

It's one of the worst-handled emergencies in the sim. Everyone's an ace at the V1 cuts but lose their pitot/static and it looks like "man wrestling chicken". :(
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by pelmet »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:13 am Yeah, Boeing's QRH does have stock power/pitch settings for "Unreliable Airspeed", and they're memory items as well.

It's one of the worst-handled emergencies in the sim. Everyone's an ace at the V1 cuts but lose their pitot/static and it looks like "man wrestling chicken". :(
Despite having flown a variety of types with a variety of instructors , I have only ever had this scenario once in the sim. Not only that but I knew that this scenario was going to happen with a couple of different types of ASI failure, so it was handled OK. The procedure doesn’t work well.

But.....I suspect that when it happens as a surprise and on top of that, is not an obvious failure(similar to what happened to me in the twin Cessna) we discover how much we really do rely on the airspeed indication.

Airspeed indication suddenly dropping to zero in cruise seems like it will be fairly obvious. Airspeed slowly increasing or decreasing during a climbing turn at low level of even in steady climb/descent caneasily result in the so-called wrestling match. There should be messages of some sort in an airliner like this, depending on the type of failure.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eric Janson
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Eric Janson »

Another close call - this could easily have ended in disaster.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bb4f5b3&opt=0

Really makes you wonder how such things are possible.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by complexintentions »

I wonder who makes the pitot covers. I'd like to buy stock in that company, must be pretty great design to stay on the whole flight! :mrgreen:
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Eric Janson wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:52 am Another close call - this could easily have ended in disaster.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bb4f5b3&opt=0

Really makes you wonder how such things are possible.
WTF. My aircraft will yell at me if I’m not in appropriate TO config. It doesn’t need to as if I saw any red flags an abort would occur. Why did this crew continue the take off roll with multiple flags below V1???
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Eric Janson »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:38 am
Eric Janson wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:52 am Another close call - this could easily have ended in disaster.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bb4f5b3&opt=0

Really makes you wonder how such things are possible.
WTF. My aircraft will yell at me if I’m not in appropriate TO config. It doesn’t need to as if I saw any red flags an abort would occur. Why did this crew continue the take off roll with multiple flags below V1???
Illustrates the competency of some crews in that part of the World perfectly.


https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index. ... ou-to-fly/

All 6 of the listed incidents really happened.

Just another day in Asia!

The only thing that surprises me is that there aren't more accidents in the region!
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by pelmet »

pelmet wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:15 pm Unknown if the accident pilots were aware of what happened on the previous flight. But if the journey log has an unreliable airspeed entry, it might be an idea to carefully review what to do if it turns out that it was not fixed properly.
A WhatsApp chat group that I am on had a picture of the previous flight logbook entry.

It says....”IAS and ALT DISAGREE shown after takeoff”.

The maintenance entry says....”...performed flushing LH ADM and static ADM. Ops test on ground found satisfied.”

An entry like that might make you want to review appropriate emergency procedures prior to departure.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Eric Janson »

pelmet wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:53 pm An entry like that might make you want to review appropriate emergency procedures prior to departure.
It appears they had an issue on the 3 flights prior to the crash.

Not sure why a test flight wasn't done - hopefully the investigation will answer this question.

Not sure how a ground test tells you anything about an issue that happened inflight.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by righthandman »

Some new info. that could be relevant:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by aeroncasuperchief »

Looking at CAL s picture, I ask WHY is the pilot taxiing in a poorly lit residential neighbourhood ! :lol:
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Longtimer »

Based on the number of 737Max aircraft and others flying in Canada I am surprised this was not posted.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... rgency.pdf
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by righthandman »

Maybe planes (especially with sidestick controls) should have a red robust centrally located 3 position switch labeled “Auto L” @ 10 o’clock position, “Auto R” @ 2 o’clock position, and an “Auto Off” @ 6 o’clock position. There should also be 2 green lights below the L and R switch positions. The Auto positions (L or R) should normally be used by the PF and remain in that position if and only if reliable sensor inputs are fed to the corresponding pilot, otherwise the other side should be engaged and if that too is receiving unreliable sensor inputs then the Auto Off should disconnect any and all automation flying the plane and let the pilots do their piloting sh*t.

If it’s a plane with a sidestick/FBW and the plane’s automation is disconnected and in full manual mode, one or both green lights should then light up on the corresponding side(s) anytime the sidestick is sending valid control signals to the various aircraft flight controls.

All these freaking software safeguards are killing people. Commercial aircraft shouldn’t require a computer for stability argumentation. I just want the plane to behave something like what I learned to fly on. And then make sure that the good button pushers also retain basic flying skills otherwise drive a taxi.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by Gannet167 »

righthandman wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 am Maybe planes (especially with sidestick controls) should have a red robust centrally located 3 position switch labeled “Auto L” @ 10 o’clock position, “Auto R” @ 2 o’clock position, and an “Auto Off” @ 6 o’clock position. There should also be 2 green lights below the L and R switch positions. The Auto positions (L or R) should normally be used by the PF and remain in that position if and only if reliable sensor inputs are fed to the corresponding pilot
That sounds basically like what an modern FCP/FCU has. AP1 and AP2. Green lights. PF uses onside one. Big red flashing light and alarm sound when they're disconnected.
If it’s a plane with a sidestick/FBW and the plane’s automation is disconnected and in full manual mode, one or both green lights should then light up on the corresponding side(s) anytime the sidestick is sending valid control signals to the various aircraft flight controls.
Define "valid".
All these freaking software safeguards are killing people. Commercial aircraft shouldn’t require a computer for stability argumentation. I just want the plane to behave something like what I learned to fly on. And then make sure that the good button pushers also retain basic flying skills otherwise drive a taxi.
All that software has saved thousands more lives than it has killed. Heavy commercial aircraft with swept, super critical wings fly at transonic speeds. They absolutely require stability augmentation, yaw dampers, mach trim or ... they don't fly well. A modern jet airliner that weighs over a hundred thousand lbs and flies at mach 0.8 near the tropopause does not behave at all like what you learned to fly on. Thankfully.
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Last edited by Gannet167 on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by righthandman »

Gannet167 wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:34 am
righthandman wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 am Maybe planes (especially with sidestick controls) should have a red robust centrally located 3 position switch labeled “Auto L” @ 10 o’clock position, “Auto R” @ 2 o’clock position, and an “Auto Off” @ 6 o’clock position. There should also be 2 green lights below the L and R switch positions. The Auto positions (L or R) should normally be used by the PF and remain in that position if and only if reliable sensor inputs are fed to the corresponding pilot
That sounds basically like what an modern FCP/FCU has. AP1 and AP2. Green lights. PF uses onside one. Big red flashing light and alarm sound when they're disconnected.
If it’s a plane with a sidestick/FBW and the plane’s automation is disconnected and in full manual mode, one or both green lights should then light up on the corresponding side(s) anytime the sidestick is sending valid control signals to the various aircraft flight controls.
Define "valid".
By valid I meant that if you input a 10% control surface deflection it won’t command a full deflection at the control surface for example. Some way of verification it’s a matching signal.

All these freaking software safeguards are killing people. Commercial aircraft shouldn’t require a computer for stability argumentation. I just want the plane to behave something like what I learned to fly on. And then make sure that the good button pushers also retain basic flying skills otherwise drive a taxi.
[/quote]
All that software has saved thousands more lives than it has killed. Heavy commercial aircraft with swept, super critical wings fly at transonic speeds. They absolutely require stability augmentation, yaw dampers, mach trim or ... they don't fly well. A modern jet airliner that weighs over a hundred thousand lbs and flies at mach 0.8 near the tropopause does not behave at all like what you learned to fly on. Thankfully.
Concerning my stability argumentation comment I meant the plane should be at least flyable in an emergency in Manual mode without the need for computer to “decide” what you really want. Sort of this “attitude + power = performance”. So if you pitch the nose up 2-4 degrees (whatever is normal for cruise flight) and apply 80-90% power the thing will at least fly straight and level. The only thing one would want to be sure of is before you take over full manual control the pitch trim is not wildly off from what it should be.

Did you read what the issue was that likely brought the plane down?

When Boeing developed 737MAX, it made some design changes to accomodate much larger and fuel efficient engines and extended the landing gear by eight inches. This developed a “pitch up” condition during higher thrust, and Boeing introduced a new 737 MAX system — called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System)., but failed to add it to operators manuals or inform operators.

MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) is implemented on the 737 MAX to enhance pitch characteristics with flaps UP and at elevated angles of attack. The MCAS function commands nose down stabilizer to enhance pitch characteristics during steep turns with elevated load factors and during flaps up flight at airspeeds approaching stall. MCAS is activated without pilot input and only operates in manual, flaps up flight. The system is designed to allow the flight crew to use column trim switch or stabilizer aislestand cutout switches to override MCAS input. The function is commanded by the Flight Control computer using input data from sensors and other airplane systems.

Any of my students I sent solo should be able to do a better job in flying than the guys on Air France 447 with a ten minute briefing on how to keep the plane straight and level without any computer systems functioning, in an emergency situation I mean.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

Post by pianokeys »

righthandman wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 am Maybe planes (especially with sidestick controls) should have a red robust centrally located 3 position switch labeled “Auto L” @ 10 o’clock position, “Auto R” @ 2 o’clock position, and an “Auto Off” @ 6 o’clock position. There should also be 2 green lights below the L and R switch positions. The Auto positions (L or R) should normally be used by the PF and remain in that position if and only if reliable sensor inputs are fed to the corresponding pilot, otherwise the other side should be engaged and if that too is receiving unreliable sensor inputs then the Auto Off should disconnect any and all automation flying the plane and let the pilots do their piloting sh*t.
Other than the obvious which was already pointed out, autopilot, Airbii have a side stick priority function, meaning you can isolate a side stick from making any control input and put the aircraft solely on one stick.
If it’s a plane with a sidestick/FBW and the plane’s automation is disconnected and in full manual mode, one or both green lights should then light up on the corresponding side(s) anytime the sidestick is sending valid control signals to the various aircraft flight controls.
That’s why there are five flight computers, none of them talk to each other, and the plane only needs one to fly. Redundancy.

If you take the Airbii in to manual, it overrides any flight envelope protection. And it’s up to you, the pilot, to make sure to do as you said and make sure there are no “pitch disagreements...” or control disagreements.
All these freaking software safeguards are killing people. Commercial aircraft shouldn’t require a computer for stability argumentation. I just want the plane to behave something like what I learned to fly on. And then make sure that the good button pushers also retain basic flying skills otherwise drive a taxi.
Nope. Definitely not. They prevent people like you from “knowing better”
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