COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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nbinont
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by nbinont »

phillyfan wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:25 pm I don't trust anybody who has a problem with the background check. Its scary enough these kids are put in airplanes with pilots of unknown skill, let alone possible Pedo pilots.
That is, of course, your prerogative.

However, recognize the other side of this exchange. The pilot spent the time and effort learning how to fly. Then the pilot paid for the aircraft + fuel. Now the pilot is volunteering their time and expertise. They are offering this to you all for free. And you have the gall to tell them you don't trust them and want the pilot to go get and pay for a police check, at the pilot's expense. Just so you can get a free ride.

I'm sorry, but with that attitude, I don't want you as my passenger. Go to some commercial operation and pay your own way for a plane ride.
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MrWings
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

nbinont wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:31 pm Go to some commercial operation and pay your own way for a plane ride.
The irony being the pilot of the commercial plane may be a pedophile and flying with no criminal record check required!
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PAJ
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by PAJ »

I've been volunteering my time, aircraft and fuel for many years supporting what I believe to be an excellent program. I can see both sides of this issue and have no problem with getting a VS Check but at the same time resent being forced to. I'd get over the resentment quickly and just go get one if there wasn't a laundry list of other things to do on a daily basis. The sad part is that I just might not get it done which would then preclude me from participating. We struggle every year to get enough pilots & aircraft and imposing this requirement could very well put the program (in our little corner of the world) at risk. One could argue that if we felt passionately about keeping the program going we would do whatever it takes but I'm a realist. It will be interesting to hear the statistics from COPA of how many kids fly next year compared to last.
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Last edited by PAJ on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

I believe almost all abuse happens when adults have regular contact with the same children. Therefore it's not unreasonable for hockey coaches, scout leaders and adults in similar positions to be asked to provide a check. It's hard to see how a one-off flight with a pilot is a risk.

For a while I volunteered as a teacher of adult numeracy. Then the charity decided that although they offered no services at all to children or vulnerable people, that all volunteers should provide a police check (at our expense). I thought that was overreach.
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ahramin
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by ahramin »

Is it an imposition on my time? Yes

Is it necessary? I don't see any evidence that COPA for Kids recipients are in any danger without it

Is it a stupid move by COPA? Yes

Is it a big deal? No
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JasonE
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by JasonE »

Although I have a current background check because we host international students, I think this is a mistake for COPA. They will likely limit their pilots to people that already have them done.

It's just going to create too much of a nuisance. For example, the office where I have mine done is 20 minutes away. 40 minutes of driving, plus another 20 minutes at the office for one hour total just to apply. Then you have to pick it up in person with ID one to two weeks later, so add another 40-60 minutes for pickup. So that is two hours of my time, before I have even get to the airport!

I really enjoy sharing the gift of aviation with others, especially the joy on someone's face for their first flight (ok sometimes fear :) ). I did not have that opportunity when I was young but can imagine the impression it would make. If we want general aviation and our airports to survive, it is our duty to engage with young people and encourage them fly. People tend to think aviation is expensive. Well it is, but no more so than playing some levels of organized sports!

I am mildly concerned they (COPA) are interested more in these checks, than verifying if every volunteer pilot has a current medical and insurance! I have flown COPA for Kids not one person has ever checked any of my papers. I think the risk is extremely low in that environment, and pilots are just going to stop bothering. Some paper pushing bureaucrat at COPA needs to wise up. This will affect the smaller COPA flights more than the big ones.
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Cessna 180
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Cessna 180 »

EAA Young Eagles (not that they do a whole lot in Canada, but they do) has been doing this for years. They have a third party company run the check however. All I had to do was e-sign a consent form. It's to protect the organization from lawsuits.
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nbinont
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by nbinont »

Cessna 180 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:08 pm All I had to do was e-sign a consent form.
Now that is a bit more reasonable. No cost to the pilot and a couple clicks (minimal hassle). Just make sure the consent scope is limited to something reasonable, such as a criminal records check.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame »

digits_ wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:24 pmHire a private investigator at your own cost and on your own time to check up on me if you want, but I am not going to drive an hour, pay a fee, drive another hour a week later just to put your mind at ease with a worthless piece of paper, so that I have earned your trust to fly your kid around in my plane at my time at my own costs. But since this is a rule now, how about in return, I want to see your kid's school reports to make sure he has no behavioural issues that could impede a safe flight. I also want him to have a good grade in English, to make sure has the capacity to understand verbal commands in case of an emergency. I'll also need a doctor's note to make sure he doesn't die during the flight and a note from a psychologist of my choice to make sure he won't get a panic attack for which I could be held responsible.
Don't forget to bring proof that the child's vaccinations are up-to-date. No sense getting sued because you took three kids flying and one wasn't vaccinated and that kid infected the other two.
Trust goes both ways. B*llsh*t too.
Indeed. :)
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame »

It just occurred to me while reading all of these responses that there is probably a greater risk of something happening during all of the waiting time on the ground between flights... Many parents try to drop their kids off and come back a couple of hours later like it's a daycare facility, and while we always tell them they can't leave the kids unattended it does happen. Yet the background checks are only required for the pilots, not the ground crew...
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MrWings
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

nbinont wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:41 pm
Cessna 180 wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:08 pm All I had to do was e-sign a consent form.
Now that is a bit more reasonable. No cost to the pilot and a couple clicks (minimal hassle). Just make sure the consent scope is limited to something reasonable, such as a criminal records check.
Someone is paying for the criminal record check. Do local COPA groups now have to seek donations to cover the criminal record check?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Heliian »

I can't believe how stupid and cheap some pilots are. First complaining about a $55 medical and now about a vulnerable sector check which costs $30.
The VCS is becoming commonplace in volounteer positions with children, get over yourselves.

At this point I wonder how much some of these pilots spend on their planes annually, did they even do an oil change, cause ya know that costs money too.
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digits_
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

Heliian wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:19 pm I can't believe how stupid and cheap some pilots are. First complaining about a $55 medical and now about a vulnerable sector check which costs $30.
The VCS is becoming commonplace in volounteer positions with children, get over yourselves.

At this point I wonder how much some of these pilots spend on their planes annually, did they even do an oil change, cause ya know that costs money too.
Pilots are cheap because they volunteer to take kids up for free :?:

There is a reason for maintenance, fuel and insurance costs.

There is no reason for that police check. It's utterly useless and ridiculous and will make zero difference.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by HiFlyChick »

Heliian wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:19 pm I can't believe how stupid and cheap some pilots are. First complaining about a $55 medical and now about a vulnerable sector check which costs $30.
The VCS is becoming commonplace in volounteer positions with children, get over yourselves.
+1!

If you are getting all grumpy about paying $30 because you know YOU aren't going to molest any kids, contemplate this - this check is for EVERYONE. Does it really hurt you that much to pay$30 to ensure that children are not exposed to a child predator? (And we're talking about $30 for the entire year, not per child - amortize it over a bunch of flights with a bunch of kids and the cost per child to help keep them safe is pretty low)

If you think that it can't happen in this type of situation, you are sadly naive. What cost in keeping children safe? Maybe COPA isn't worried about liability, maybe they're just worried about children
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

HiFlyChick wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:11 pm
Heliian wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:19 pm I can't believe how stupid and cheap some pilots are. First complaining about a $55 medical and now about a vulnerable sector check which costs $30.
The VCS is becoming commonplace in volounteer positions with children, get over yourselves.
+1!

If you are getting all grumpy about paying $30 because you know YOU aren't going to molest any kids, contemplate this - this check is for EVERYONE. Does it really hurt you that much to pay$30 to ensure that children are not exposed to a child predator? (And we're talking about $30 for the entire year, not per child - amortize it over a bunch of flights with a bunch of kids and the cost per child to help keep them safe is pretty low)

If you think that it can't happen in this type of situation, you are sadly naive. What cost in keeping children safe? Maybe COPA isn't worried about liability, maybe they're just worried about children
You honstely think one child will be saved by that check? It's a pilot they spend 20 minutes alone with, if that. And the check is not for EVERYONE. It is ONLY for the pilots, not for the ground crew or other volunteers that spend more time with the kids, as stated above.

If you look at past cases of child abuse, it is, as stated previously by other posters, a person in power that spends a lot of time with the same child, builds some kind of trust relationship with the child over a longer time span (weeks, months). The pedophile also tries to hide his actions, by manipulating the victims. It is just impossible to do all that in a 20 minute flight.

It is a slap in the face to all the pilots who volunteer their free time and money to give someone a nice and free experience. They can either do 4 flights or spend that same amount of time satisfying an irrational fear of their parents/COPA. What do you prefer? A pilot offering 4 flights or a piece of paper?

If you are truly worried about your kid being molested by the pilot, then don't attend the event. Or pay for the pilot's inconvenience. Things like this destroy nice initiatives.


Bonus question: would the biggest danger to the kid in this program be the potential to be abused, or the potential to crash due to a rusty non-current over-confident weekend warrior in a possibly questionably maintained airplane?
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Last edited by digits_ on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

If you are getting all grumpy about paying $30 because you know YOU aren't going to molest any kids, contemplate this - this check is for EVERYONE. Does it really hurt you that much to pay$30 to ensure that children are not exposed to a child predator? (And we're talking about $30 for the entire year, not per child - amortize it over a bunch of flights with a bunch of kids and the cost per child to help keep them safe is pretty low)

If you think that it can't happen in this type of situation, you are sadly naive. What cost in keeping children safe? Maybe COPA isn't worried about liability, maybe they're just worried about children.
It's a mistake to think that any single kind of check will "ensure that children are not exposed to a child predator" or "keep them safe". ("Sadly naive" are words that come to mind :-) ) It's also an abrogation of responsibility to shift the burden onto outside agencies. People with an unhealthy and uncontrolled interest in children don't always have a record that would fail a check, and not everyone who fails such a check is actually a danger to children.
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Last edited by photofly on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrWings
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

HiFlyChick wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:11 pm If you think that it can't happen in this type of situation, you are sadly naive. What cost in keeping children safe? Maybe COPA isn't worried about liability, maybe they're just worried about children
Anything can happen anytime. A piece of paper won't stop that. Neither will any amount of money.

The fact is the chance of something happening in a tightly controlled public event is low.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

COPA is worried about their insurance premiums. Not that that's unreasonable, but that's always what drives these things. Insurers now ask for your child protection policy, as a matter of course. That means you have to write one - and what are you going to put in it? Not many people have big enough balls to say, you know what, requiring police record checks isn't appropriate for our organization and we won't require one. Easiest to go with the herd.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm

It is a slap in the face to all the pilots who volunteer their free time and money to give someone a nice and free experience.
We get it from your multiple posts. You're offended.

Personally, I'm sick of people offended about everything. I happily did my police check, as did my wife, for the countless hours of volunteer work we both have done.

COPA made a decision, wise in my view, many, many other agencies have done, to address the extremely serious liability risk out there.
They could have just halted COPA for kids period, and I'll bet some in leadership would be pushing that solution.

So, like, Bye-------
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

And BTW for all the critics: Stop whining. Any loser can just whine.

Try running something -- any organization -- at a leadership level. See how demanding and difficult it is to make these decisions. I've been there, it ain't always fun.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm
We get it from your multiple posts. You're offended.

Personally, I'm sick of people offended about everything. .
Oh my goodness. Look in the mirror, Mr "stop giving my money to BBD"!
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