Where is this so called shortage

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ekg
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ekg »

It's not unheard of being an FO on a jet after going through a cadet program in Europe or Asia. I know a couple of engineers that made the career change and did just that and are flying jets in Europe and Asia. Takes about 2 years. One flies an a320 and another a 747. They were in their late 20s when they started as FOs. Comparing those experiences to what pilots go through in Canada and the US I'm starting to think going the expat route is the optimal way to go.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Canadian aviation will never catch up with the rest of the world until our flag carrier stops paying poverty wages. $54,000 for a new 777 FO. I would wager Air Nigeria pays more!
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UNS1C
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by UNS1C »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:55 am Canadian aviation will never catch up with the rest of the world until our flag carrier stops paying poverty wages. $54,000 for a new 777 FO. I would wager Air Nigeria pays more!
And two things that need to happen for that to happen are......

The govt needs to butt out and allow us to actually have the ability to strike if needed and we need a real union. Not hopeful on either.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

The thing you've got to understand about Europe though (or the UK specifically) is that these days you have to go to the right flight school and do an integrated program in order to have any chance of getting these straightforward into a jet jobs. If you can't afford to spend around $200k to get your frozen atpl then you have far less opportunities than you do in Canada. There is pretty much just one option - instruct. To get the instructor rating these days is probably around $20k. Then you'll make a whopping $25k a year (if you're lucky) and building the hours as an instructor in the UK is very hit and miss due to our weather.

It may seem like the grass is greener in Europe but unless you have access to a big chunk of money that you can gamble with you are much much better off in Canada.

I agree with you though Laguardia, it does suck that after spending all that money etc that you then have to go off and work the ramp to somehow prove yourself worthy of flying an aircraft. To be honest though you're not doing that, what you're doing in a strange way is contributing to the aviation industry in this country. The beginner Pilot working as cheap labour rampie I'm sure basically allows a lot of these smaller operators to survive. If they couldn't use Pilots to do these jobs and had to get non-pilots to work 16 hour days for next to no money they'd be done for, without the carrot of the flying job at the end of it the non-pilot would just refuse to work such long hours for such low pay.

Even when you make it to that flying job you've got many years of low pay work for long hour days ahead of you until you finally get that decent wage and decent job. If you're only goal was to make a lot of money (or even a standard amount of money) relatively quickly then you're in the wrong profession. You basically need to just say to yourself that you accept that you're going to right off the next few years in terms of making a decent amount of money because in the long run you will get to where you want to be. It's going to be tough, but you know this, and like you say you've just got to decide if its personally worth it to you to right off the next few years worth of income to eventually get to that Air Canada job.
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bearitus
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by bearitus »

I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

bearitus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:24 am I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
That's just sad and I feel sorry for you because you (and a lot of other pilots out there) deserve better. How the hell is it fair for someone to have to consider giving up their dream job (i'm assuming pilot was your dream job) just to be able to support their family?
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
Yup we're in a similar position. I've got about 1800 hours too with a variety of turboprop multi crew stuff and multi piston pic. I'm looking at probably another few years on pretty low wages and wondering if I should go back to the engineering job. It's a tough industry that's for sure!
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

That's just sad and I feel sorry for you because you (and a lot of other pilots out there) deserve better. How the hell is it fair for someone to have to consider giving up their dream job (i'm assuming pilot was your dream job) just to be able to support their family?
If one can not support a family on the wage that Air Canada pays you have to choose between your family and Air Canada.

There are other jobs in aviation that pay a living wage.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Come on cupcakes. It's not sad, it's not tough. You can get your AAs in cracker jack box now and be a 705 captain making 6 figures or close to it, or a mainline FO within five years of the ink drying on your CPL (if those are your goals.) The last info I have on AC is a bit old, but started at over $50k/year and going up rapidly from there. Admittedly, that's not great but it does go up substantially and quickly. Not to mention all the benefits, schedule, perks. pension, etc. And it's pretty easy to get to either avenue. Be a half way normal human, have a good attitude, work hard, plan your career moves intelligently and be willing to relocate. It's not rocket science. If you can't make it work, the problem is YOU. If any of the above is an affront to your delicate sensibilities, it's because you are an entitled snowflake.
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

shimmydampner wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:17 pm Come on cupcakes. It's not sad, it's not tough. You can get your AAs in cracker jack box now and be a 705 captain making 6 figures or close to it, or a mainline FO within five years of the ink drying on your CPL (if those are your goals.) The last info I have on AC is a bit old, but started at over $50k/year and going up rapidly from there. Admittedly, that's not great but it does go up substantially and quickly. Not to mention all the benefits, schedule, perks. pension, etc. And it's pretty easy to get to either avenue. Be a half way normal human, have a good attitude, work hard, plan your career moves intelligently and be willing to relocate. It's not rocket science. If you can't make it work, the problem is YOU. If any of the above is an affront to your delicate sensibilities, it's because you are an entitled snowflake.
No it doesn't... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years? It also doesn't go up that much per year either...

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... air_canada

I can say that those numbers are fairly accurate given what i've heard from friends working at Air Canada

I can also say schedule is also not the greatest depending on the type of aircraft, some types take forever to move up in seniority...

With the way prices of houses has sky rocketed, and cost of living going up, aviation wages have been lagging significantly... not saying that other job wages have increased drastically, but come on. Making it work is one thing, and if your a single guy or gal, it's great... but i'm sure by the time a lot of pilots end up at Air Canada, their life situation has changed

No one said you don't have to make sacrifices and make it work, because clearly a lot of members here do echo that sentiment, but with mentalities like yours lingering in aviation, things will take a VERY LONG TIME to change

So i'm sorry that not everyone is within your realm of standards from the 1960s... times have changed but clearly your mentality hasn't and if that makes us all a bunch of entitled snowflakes I say you can go pound sand
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

So i'm sorry that not everyone is within your realm of standards from the 1960s... times have changed but clearly your mentality hasn't and if that makes us all a bunch of entitled snowflakes I say you can go pound sand
That is real class.

I was flying commercially in the sixties and it was really no different then, where were you in the sixties?
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ekg
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ekg »

Is the military really having a shortage these days? Apparently not enough pilots for the F-18s with the attrition. Read in the news today. I heard an anecdote that one is more likely to get in the NHL before becoming an F-18 pilot in Canada!

Pay seems to be not bad, $80K. Tempting if I was 18-22 didn't know any better.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... pilot.html
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

C.W.E. wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:26 pm
So i'm sorry that not everyone is within your realm of standards from the 1960s... times have changed but clearly your mentality hasn't and if that makes us all a bunch of entitled snowflakes I say you can go pound sand
That is real class.

I was flying commercially in the sixties and it was really no different then, where were you in the sixties?
Ironically, you kind of proved the sad reality of things... Nothing's changed

And I was referring to mentality, not about aviation in the 60s
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

double post
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Last edited by shimmydampner on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Laguardia wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:18 pm No it doesn't... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years? It also doesn't go up that much per year either...

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... air_canada

I can say that those numbers are fairly accurate given what i've heard from friends working at Air Canada

I can also say schedule is also not the greatest depending on the type of aircraft, some types take forever to move up in seniority...

With the way prices of houses has sky rocketed, and cost of living going up, aviation wages have been lagging significantly... not saying that other job wages have increased drastically, but come on. Making it work is one thing, and if your a single guy or gal, it's great... but i'm sure by the time a lot of pilots end up at Air Canada, their life situation has changed

No one said you don't have to make sacrifices and make it work, because clearly a lot of members here do echo that sentiment, but with mentalities like yours lingering in aviation, things will take a VERY LONG TIME to change

So i'm sorry that not everyone is within your realm of standards from the 1960s... times have changed but clearly your mentality hasn't and if that makes us all a bunch of entitled snowflakes I say you can go pound sand
Aww sweetie, I thought you were done posting.
I don't think you have your facts totally straight on the pay scale.
And the schedule isn't good enough for you with a minimum 12 days off per month? You poor thing. And the more desirable types go to the more senior employees? How rude! Starting wage at $20k/year more than the average individual income not enough for someone of your considerable expertise at 23 years old? Makes sense.
Yes, these things make you an entitled snowflake.
I wasn't around in the 60s.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Laguardia wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:18 pm... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years?
That's easy. Because it's luck of the draw what type you will get. Let's say you show up for day 1 and another gal shows up with the same resume as you: 1500 hours and a cracker jack ATPL. You pick from the hat, she gets one seniority number up on you and you get Embraer and she gets Dreamliner. Are you going to be happy with making $60k/year less than her based on dumb luck? How the hell do you justify that?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by lownslow »

Laguardia wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:06 pm I meant that I need to get my shit together and just go for it or accept my stubbornness and forget about it all together.
My prediction: you will never be happy no matter what you do. Determine for yourself why that is and make decisions from there.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

C-GGGQ wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:48 am In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
Because pilots can bid to move to bases/types that suits their lifestyle. This isn't that tough to understand. I don't even work there and it makes sense to me how things are done. Furthermore, I don't have the desire to work there but it is objectively, a very good job. Maybe the pay lags behind other national carriers, I don't really know. But you can't tell me that all the benefits, perks, pension and serious long term earning potential (especially if you get in in your twenties) is a raw deal for some wet behind the ears kid. If you think it is, I'm sorry...you're feeling entitled.
What a trip: I can't believe that we're at a place where a guy like myself who never felt the urge to go this route is sticking up for its merits to kids straight out of flight school.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

shimmydampner wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:17 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:48 am In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
Because pilots can bid to move to bases/types that suits their lifestyle. This isn't that tough to understand. I don't even work there and it makes sense to me how things are done. Furthermore, I don't have the desire to work there but it is objectively, a very good job. Maybe the pay lags behind other national carriers, I don't really know. But you can't tell me that all the benefits, perks, pension and serious long term earning potential (especially if you get in in your twenties) is a raw deal for some wet behind the ears kid. If you think it is, I'm sorry...you're feeling entitled.
What a trip: I can't believe that we're at a place where a guy like myself who never felt the urge to go this route is sticking up for its merits to kids straight out of flight school.
That still doesn't change "why not just flat rate all the way up" then. The answer is because wide bodies etc. Command more pay, just not if you're new, which is what makes no sense if we go by your "it's not fair to the new guys because random" explanation
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