Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm

Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:59 pm

groundpilot wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm
Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
I agree with what most of what you said but I personally know 2 guys who wish they never left Sunwing. I’m sure in a few years they may not regret their decision but for now the 100-150k paycut is making their lives pretty miserable.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:04 pm

Well I don't know all +4000 pilots at AC but I can say everyone I fly with, are very happy.

Bottom of the seniority list isn't great but it is a long term game
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Shady McSly » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:08 pm

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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by TheStig » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:11 am

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 pm
altiplano wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm


Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

Dr. Jordan Peterson uses this phrase a lot when discussing modern feminism and I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. If a woman is more qualified than me for the job, by all means hire them. But they should never be considered for a position (including minorities) with lower qualifications just due to their race or gender. But then again I'm just a privileged white male so what do I know.
The issue, from what I've observed, is that there aren't that many experienced Female pilots to hire. If an airline hires female pilots with less experience, say 4000 hours, while the average male has 5000 hours they still won't achieve the desired 'equality'. The result would simply be that for any given portion of the seniority list, the women would be younger. The same argument can be made for any minority.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:33 am

Okay. It's been awhile, but I'll chime in. Sorry, but you don't make 40% more at AC than TS. The contract is public. Check it out. We're also due for another next year cause we only do 5 years not 10. Although the salaries are higher at AC, when will you see that? My neighbour who flies the 787 took that position almost 30 years in the company. Spent 20 flying the 320 half the month domestic. Even 767 Rouge captains are 20 years in the company. I'll be wide body captain at TS in less than 4. Which means I'll reach max salary in about 13. Most pilots, with the exception of the training folks won't break 500 hours a year at TS. I, as a commuter, worked 115 days last year... That's including ground training and sim. There are folks on the NB that do 90... That's less tban 1/4 of the year for the mathematically challenged. We have great skeds from day 1. We fly south or Europe so our work is typically very efficient. We can not be on reserve for more than a month in row or if we have 4 scheduled days in a month... Sim, overlapped pairing, vacation. We have a very good contract and a good family atmosphere. I can call my CP anytime to talk about whatever I need to. Personally, in my very humble opinion, the only thing AC has on us is job security.... Which is easy when the government bails you out every 7 years.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:37 am

If you're dream is AC, go for it. But there are companies besides them who have a lot to offer, whether it be TS or Sunwing or flying an Otter on floats. Flying for AC isn't the only place to hang your hat for a career. And if it's money your after, then bail on Canada altogether cause they're all at the bottom of that list.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:05 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:33 am
Okay. It's been awhile, but I'll chime in. Sorry, but you don't make 40% more at AC than TS. The contract is public. Check it out. We're also due for another next year cause we only do 5 years not 10. Although the salaries are higher at AC, when will you see that? My neighbour who flies the 787 took that position almost 30 years in the company. Spent 20 flying the 320 half the month domestic. Even 767 Rouge captains are 20 years in the company. I'll be wide body captain at TS in less than 4. Which means I'll reach max salary in about 13. Most pilots, with the exception of the training folks won't break 500 hours a year at TS. I, as a commuter, worked 115 days last year... That's including ground training and sim. There are folks on the NB that do 90... That's less tban 1/4 of the year for the mathematically challenged. We have great skeds from day 1. We fly south or Europe so our work is typically very efficient. We can not be on reserve for more than a month in row or if we have 4 scheduled days in a month... Sim, overlapped pairing, vacation. We have a very good contract and a good family atmosphere. I can call my CP anytime to talk about whatever I need to. Personally, in my very humble opinion, the only thing AC has on us is job security.... Which is easy when the government bails you out every 7 years.
Are you math/fact challenge?

When was the last time AC took money? When didn't they pay it back?

Some of your other assertions are inaccurate also.

Mainline 767 is just over 20 years... junior LCC 767 closer to 15. Junior Mainline 320 or LCC 320 about 2...

Can you confirm the Transat pay scale? As I said, I only looked at the pilotpay website and I'm not going searching for your contract... This is what I see...
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png (421.39 KiB) Viewed 1864 times
Looks like I do make about 40% more on a NB and I don't really do much extra... I know FOs that make more than me too but they are working the system pretty hard draft/drop, etc...

Anyway, if those Transat numbers are accurate you'll be a WB Captain in 4 and earning less the an AC EMJ Captain... 30 years to get it? Hardly, see upgrade times above... I wouldn't knock domestic flying either, lots of guys prefer it... easy peasy 4 time zones... at least we have options.

I don't dispute Transat is a good lifestyle company. Basically same as rouge flying which we have a lot of guys doing here... it's bigger than Transat, YOS on upgrade, and a pension...

I wonder if Transat will dual type the 321neo with the 330 to get some more efficiency out of the crews? 330/321neo is a formidable 1/2 punch... new 767/757 like combo...

Anyway. Look forward to the pay confirmation.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm

Those numbers aren't even close. And our next contract, one year from now will put us even closer to AC pay. I know we won't get it but look at it this way. If you divides a Transat pilot salary by the number of days worked, the very large majority of us would have a higher daily rate. And that is a fact. Another fact is my neighbour took WB captain at 28 years in the company cause the sked sucked prior to that. I'm not disputing domestic flying. I prefer it myself. I'm only trying to defend the fact that AC isn't the best option for everyone. Again, I'll be a WB captain in 4 years versus 20 plus at AC if you wanna good sked. And yes, we'll have a CCQ program in the next few years. I'll be able to fly a 330 to Paris today and take a 321 back tomorrow. And that's great AC paid the money back but why did they have to take the billion dollar bailouts in the first place... And would Westjet or TS get the same treatment?
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:16 pm

Last time they took a bailout... 2009. Just checked. 1.02 billion dollars. Did they pay it back? Idk. Again, I'll work on average less than 10 days a month. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure our per diems are the best in Canada. I do 10 credits... Ish. Sourh and back or go to Europe. We have a mini block program that allows us to work even less. We're a great place to work. I know AC is too. It's the Golden goose for most folks. But there are a lot of great things about TS or Sunwing (ability to make copious amounts of OT) that are good too.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:19 pm

Most AC and westjet guys I meet think is Sunwing and Transat guys make way less than we do. I talked to one guy who figured the most anyone at SWG could make is about $120k :lol:
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 pm

P.S. CCQ program means everyone gets wide body pay and there's only one list per base for FO and Captain. It's gonna be sweeeeeet! I understand why you see a TS guy at the AC ground school now and then. But he or she is probably very young and is less than 2 years in the company. I don't blame them for leaving... Just for the security. When the recession hits, Ottawa's got your back. :-P
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by nwopilot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:40 pm

Those numbers someone posted from a screenshot for Transat are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Outdated. Add about 35 k onto those numbers. In theory. you could be at the top of the widebody scale with 14 years into the company.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:05 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Those numbers aren't even close. And our next contract, one year from now will put us even closer to AC pay. I know we won't get it but look at it this way. If you divides a Transat pilot salary by the number of days worked, the very large majority of us would have a higher daily rate. And that is a fact. Another fact is my neighbour took WB captain at 28 years in the company cause the sked sucked prior to that. I'm not disputing domestic flying. I prefer it myself. I'm only trying to defend the fact that AC isn't the best option for everyone. Again, I'll be a WB captain in 4 years versus 20 plus at AC if you wanna good sked. And yes, we'll have a CCQ program in the next few years. I'll be able to fly a 330 to Paris today and take a 321 back tomorrow. And that's great AC paid the money back but why did they have to take the billion dollar bailouts in the first place... And would Westjet or TS get the same treatment?
Thanks for clearing that up. What are the numbers then? Is it hourly? Monthly guarantee? What's your pension like? DC match? Does the company pay/match? Do you pay your own benefits? Do you have disability covered?

How about Sunwing? What's the deal there?

Anyway, I think that is what everyone had said. It's not for everyone... lots of good jobs to be had... but your impressions of AC "sucking" are out to lunch. 20 years to a good schedule? Hardly. Your ideas are way off.

"WB Captain in 4 years" with narrow body pay... divided by this or that, carry the zero, doesn't equal more, but I sure hope you guys DO get ahead or match us ASAP!

2009 was a loan from EDC at 12 or 15 % and it was paid back in full... and only +/- $200 million was EDC - NOT A BILLION. The rest was private equity. Corporations take loans all the time.

AC government "bailouts" is a common fallacy among the general public... you see it in more or less every comment section below any news article that mentions AC...

If I remember previous to that the Feds doled out dollars to all Canadian airlines including Transat in '02 or '03...

There is no question a lot of baggage from the past 80 years at AC, The Airbus Affair, or politicians with one hand on the wheel, one hand in the corporation's pocket... The ACPPA - that's a doozie, where the government mandates where and how AC conducts it's business... are any other airlines subject to that? Any other private corporations? of course not.

Anyway. AC's not for everyone, that's for sure. But it's a good job...
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:43 pm

“Haters gonna hate”

“They hate us cause they ain’t us”

I find it ironic that someone rips into a former crown corporation company with a turbulent history of mergers and tough times that took a government payout but yet brags about how little they work.

If Air Transat pilots are working so little, how efficient can the operation be? Air Canada has had record profits and that is a good thing if you work here.

For the record - I would be happy to lose the “T4 Challenge” and AT pilots make way more than AC ones. It only paves the way for better wages for all...
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:14 am

I never said AC sucked. It is arguably the best airline job in Canada. I can't and won't deny that. I'm simply sticking up for the other guys. I happen to really like my job and based on my lifestyle, where I live and where I want to be, Transat was the best choice for me.

I'm not bragging about working less. I've always liked my job but I like spending time at home more. I wasn't ripping AC for the bailout or whatever you want to call it, but it's easy to advertise job security when even when you fail, the government won't let you. Would TS get the same treatment? What about Westjet? I doubt it.

We work less because of our transition periods in the Spring and Fall. We're very busy January to March and July and August. Commuters like myself can get 6 day pairings during these months. If you live in yyz or yul and want turns, you can finish your block in as little as 7 days. But always 10 or less.

Right now, a WB captain will max out at 215 hourly at 80 hours a month which is the guarantee. Works out to about 223 a year I think. We have RRSP matching at 140% to max 5%. I believe it's going to 160% next year. Our benefits are very good. Our long term is very good... 10 years. You won't spend months on end on reserve. Great sked from day one and quick advancement.

We'll be in negotiations again soon. Hopefully things get even better. And hopefully all of us at AC, Transat, Westjet and the rest all have bright futures ahead.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by TheStig » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:02 am

Just another canuck wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:14 am
I wasn't ripping AC for the bailout or whatever you want to call it, but it's easy to advertise job security when even when you fail, the government won't let you. Would TS get the same treatment? What about Westjet? I doubt it.
Really good post JAC, thanks for adding your perspective. I can see how you feel, as someone outside of AC that somehow the government supports AC because it is a common misconception. I'd say that the government has a history of interfering with Air Canada, forcing a merger with CAL, legislating FOS but like the postal shrive we are in a Federally regulated industry. I think as pilots we all tend to hold the view that all Canadian carriers are burdened by a number of monopolies such as NavCanada, Catsa and the airport authorities. I can tell you that no one at AC feels like the government will bail us out if we fail, in fact the prospect of dealing with another Cerberus like hedge fund in CCAA a second time was one of the driving factors behind ACPA capitulating so much from 2008-2011. Lack of interference is why AC is as competitive globally today as it is.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by RVR6000 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:23 pm

nwopilot wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:40 pm
Those numbers someone posted from a screenshot for Transat are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Outdated. Add about 35 k onto those numbers. In theory. you could be at the top of the widebody scale with 14 years into the company.
Can you please post your current pay-rates here.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Speedalive » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:24 pm

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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:53 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:14 am
a WB captain will max out at 215 hourly at 80 hours a month which is the guarantee. Works out to about 223 a year I think.
You mentioned it so...

for the mathematically challenged

max $215/hr x 80 hours x 12 months = about 206 a year... in 14 years...

... no question anyone doing $200K+ is doing alright. Those are AC narrow body captain rates though which guys are doing here in about 2 years if they are so inclined... admitted, it might not stay that way forever, 2 year upgrades... but nor will 4 year TS upgrades.

As I said, AC are the most productive pilot group in NA to earn it - no question. We have most NB guys working 12-16 a month. I was 16 days/mo in July/Aug... 9 days last month was a pretty good breather, but it was a lower hour month too... Christmas off this month too... hardly "brutal" and I don't mind earning my pay... it's a pretty good job.

Stig is right on re:"bailouts"... AC provides plenty for the politicians, between generating a ton of cash and jobs, forced mergers, and a soapbox to stand on for the issue-du-jour, everything from French Language to Airline Passenger Rights to a scape goat for public complaining about something that isn't the government.

Anyways... Here's to everyone going in the right direction on pay, a great career wherever they think suits them, and keeping it safe...
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:01 pm

Yeah, I screwed that up. I can admit when I was wrong.

There are a number of things we're hoping to improve in the next contract. Pay is certainly always one of them.

I just think all things considered, we're doing pretty good at Transat. And I'm here to defend them. When I hear fellow aviators from the regionals or the 703/4 world say things like so when are you gonna apply to AC or would you actually retire there, it just goes to show how out of touch some folks are.

Who knows, maybe the southern border will open the doors to pilots and the only one left standing will be a downsized AC with a handful of routes.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Speedalive » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:24 pm

Out of curiosity, does Transat send their pilots to Germany with that Condor aircraft exchange deal? That would be pretty neat.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by FL320 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:48 pm

I spoke to 2 close friends recently, they both spent almost 3 years at AC and they resigned. They went to a LCC in Europe flying widebodies (LCC that pays better than AC on the same payscale). They both really disliked their experience at AC, mainly because of the mentality. They don’t regret the move. So no, everyone do not want to work at AC.

When I was at Sunwing, one Captain (less than 10 years in the company) showed me his last T4...slightly above 300k. This guy and many others were laughing when I was asking if they were interested in AC.
I am now at Air Transat and I love the job! I would never leave for AC. I talked to my friends at AC and I have compared both in terms of benefits and lifestyle, it’s not worth it anymore. We have very few guys leaving to AC, but they have been less than a year or so at TS. They chase the long term job security, nothing more. It’s certainly not for the pay, as they would if they could -like most of us- go to a real major airline abroad.
From January up to today I flew 470h, I really can’t complain..and I will make exactly the same T4 than my friend at Rouge on the same payscale.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:14 pm

I think it comes down to individual preferences rather than any hard and fast qualities.

Those who are younger are looking at years of seniority that will pay off big after decades might choose Air Canada. Those who are older are looking for quick advances to high payscales might not. Those who have been burned by Skyservice or Kelowna Flightcraft might be looking for stability at Air Canada. Those for whom aviation is an adventure might not.

There are no right answers, and everyone chooses their own path. As you can see, not everyone chooses Air Canada, partially because the extremely high pay and lifestyle at the end is offset by low pay and poor schedule at the beginning, even in this, a pilot shortage, where compensation and advancement is unparalleled.

I might join Air Canada. I don't think I'm their type of pilot and I don't think it's my kind of flying, but I'd do better there than anywhere else in the country. Outside of the country is great until health starts failing or wars start or you get sick of not being able to see family often or other worldly BS we don't have to deal with in Canada. But I'm keeping my options open too, there's more to life than money.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:27 pm

Speedalive wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:24 pm
Out of curiosity, does Transat send their pilots to Germany with that Condor aircraft exchange deal? That would be pretty neat.
They did not. Although they did have layovers in Düsseldorf I believe. We did have a contract in Poland last year that was around 5 1/2 months I think. You could bid for first half, second half or both. You received a car and a condo and I could be wrong, but a per diem of around 215 US a day, which ran continuously whether you were in Poland, on layover somewhere else or commuted home for your days off. We've also done the Hajj in the past out of Indonesia but it's been a few years for that. Different contracts come up on a year by year basis.

I'm slightly out of touch with this stuff because I'm not pure 330 so I've never had the opportunity to bid therefore haven't looked as much into them.
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