New duty regs are out

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Someone who has way too much time on their hands should develop a flow chart for those regs.

So so painful to read.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by lownslow »

hithere wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:50 pm Can anyone figure out if there is any effect on commuters in these new refs?
Not directly but given the concepts of time zone acclimatization I suspect that many companies will at the very least insist that you live near your base.
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:06 pm Someone who has way too much time on their hands should develop a flow chart for those regs.
Skip to the end for a summary of changes.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Arnie Pye
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Arnie Pye »

lownslow wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:10 pmNot directly but given the concepts of time zone acclimatization I suspect that many companies will at the very least insist that you live near your base.
A company can insist that I drive a red Prius. Unless they are providing me with one, it's still up to me what colour my car is. It's on you to show up to work, on-time, acclimatized for my schedule, sober and not fatigued.

nwopilot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:48 amI really hope I am incorrectly interpreting these new regs!! Apparently Medevac operators are basically exempt from all the new regs and can continue to go for 14hrs!?!?!?!?! HAHAHAH that is just silly. Out of all of the jobs I have had, I was the most fatigued while operating on a 24hr on-call medevac schedule. Why are they exempt?!?! Just hire some more damn pilots!!!
.

I second this. The most chronically fatigued I have ever been was while doing 24 hour on call medevac flying for the grand ol' sum of $25,000/year.

Speedalive wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:18 amHow is this going to affect the airlines with those highly productive turns to the Caribbean/Central America with early morning report times (swg, tsc, rou, etc)? Will they just depart later in the day to take advantage of the extra duty, or will they have to hire more pilots to compensate for the sudden increase of sun destinations layovers?
I'm guessing what ever costs the least. More crew is usually the most expensive option so I'd read into that anything to hire the least amount of pilots possible and work them to the full extent of the regulations.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liftdump
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Earth

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Liftdump »

I was over my duty day just reading that shit
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

I didn't think it was ever going to happen. I'm happy I was wrong!

Now let's wait to see in what twisted way operators will interpret the new rules...
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

lownslow wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:10 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:06 pm Someone who has way too much time on their hands should develop a flow chart for those regs.
Skip to the end for a summary of changes.
Danke!

S.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

nwopilot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:48 am I really hope I am incorrectly interpreting these new regs!! Apparently Medevac operators are basically exempt from all the new regs and can continue to go for 14hrs!?!?!?!?! HAHAHAH that is just silly. Out of all of the jobs I have had, I was the most fatigued while operating on a 24hr on-call medevac schedule. Why are they exempt?!?! Just hire some more damn pilots!!!
This would help a lot though:
700.116 (1) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member, at the end of a flight duty period, with a rest period of 10 hours plus the travel time to and from the place where the rest period is taken.

(2) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with advance notice of the member’s rest period and its duration.
You might still have to work 14 hours, but at least you'll know when you'll be able to sleep. Much better than that rolling duty day crap some operators use at the moment, or the 24/7 on reserve. Looks like day/night shift might become mandatory if you want 24 hour coverage.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by valleyboy »

By the time the dust settles and people finish blowing smoke up everyone's asses there will actually be very little change for the end user. Just more paper generated, which TC loves. :smt021

It's the Canadian way. Look at all the approach ban crap and the stuff we almost need legal advise every time you shoot an approach and now this. The models were already out there and so easy to adapt and apply. It's just moronic.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
Liftdump
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Earth

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Liftdump »

So if the seat only reclines 37 degrees,does that mean I can only work 6 hrs ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Lightchop
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Lightchop »

Curious how Air Transat is going to deal with some of their flying, as IIRC they throw their RP/FO#2 etc. in plus.

Also how about Rouge 767? They don't have sleepers, right? Are we going to start seeing some cargo sleeper pods AKA Lufthansa style in the future?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

ACPA just put out a pretty heavy handed statement regarding their discontent with the new regulations and how it does not address current fatigue concerns due to operators not being requires to immediately implement the new regs, and that most operations will rely heavily on FRMS to circumvent the new regs.

Interesting to see TCs response.

I thought ACPA and the powers that be had a rather powerful voice when it came to these new regulations.

s.
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by fish4life »

I wonder if anyone even read the FRMS section, if the pilots feel
They are too tired they can say so and it dies I don’t see why people are so upset, grow a set and fill sms reports saying you are fatigued and it dies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
WeatherMaster
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by WeatherMaster »

And what about 604 operators?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1328
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

fish4life wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:48 am I wonder if anyone even read the FRMS section, if the pilots feel
They are too tired they can say so and it dies I don’t see why people are so upset, grow a set and fill sms reports saying you are fatigued and it dies.
Thats always been the case.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
FOD_Vacuum
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:54 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

Am I understanding it right, that Medevac operations will not be subjected to the new regs, and will still be the 14 hour duty day? From experience, Medevac flying has been by far the most tiring flying job I have done, yet Medevac regs aren’t affected? Wow

And this timeline of 2 years for 705, and 4 years for 703&704 to comply seems way too long of a time to implement. I understand some airlines may have to hire more pilots and it takes time to hire and train, but not two years and certainly not four years at the bush league level.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1328
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

Some of these laws seem silly to me:'

"700.37 An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with not less than 15 minutes every 6 hours within a flight duty period to eat and drink."
It would appear the pilot is not obligated to take this time? Personally, I snack all day in cruise, and never go anywhere without a travel mug full of coffee. I have no need nor desire to take a mandatory 15 minute break.


"700.40 (1) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with the following rest periods at the end of a flight duty period:

(a) if the flight duty period ends at home base,
(i) either 12 hours, or 11 hours plus the travel time to and from the place where the rest period is taken, or
(ii) if the air operator provides suitable accommodation, 10 hours in that suitable accommodation; "
There are lots of seasonal pilots who live in a camper at the float base for the summer. It would seem that the title to the trailer determines the required rest period in such a case?
In my case, I own a house trailer but lease ground from the company, do I need 12 hours off every day, or 10?


"15 Section 703.98 of the Regulations is amended by adding the following after subsection (3):
(4) An air operator shall have a fatigue management training program for its flight crew members that contains
(a) personal fatigue management strategies relating to
(i) sleep hygiene,
(ii) lifestyle, exercise and diet, and
(iii) the consumption of alcohol and drugs;"
From Wikipedia: "Sleep hygiene is the recommended behavioral and environmental practice that is intended to promote better quality sleep."
We now need a training program to teach pilots how to be an adult?!?!

There are some good things in here, but a lot of clarity is needed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
Heliian
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1976
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Heliian »

Redneck_pilot86 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:32 pm Some of these laws seem silly to me:'

"700.37 An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with not less than 15 minutes every 6 hours within a flight duty period to eat and drink."
It would appear the pilot is not obligated to take this time? Personally, I snack all day in cruise, and never go anywhere without a travel mug full of coffee. I have no need nor desire to take a mandatory 15 minute break.


"700.40 (1) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with the following rest periods at the end of a flight duty period:

(a) if the flight duty period ends at home base,
(i) either 12 hours, or 11 hours plus the travel time to and from the place where the rest period is taken, or
(ii) if the air operator provides suitable accommodation, 10 hours in that suitable accommodation; "
There are lots of seasonal pilots who live in a camper at the float base for the summer. It would seem that the title to the trailer determines the required rest period in such a case?
In my case, I own a house trailer but lease ground from the company, do I need 12 hours off every day, or 10?


"15 Section 703.98 of the Regulations is amended by adding the following after subsection (3):
(4) An air operator shall have a fatigue management training program for its flight crew members that contains
(a) personal fatigue management strategies relating to
(i) sleep hygiene,
(ii) lifestyle, exercise and diet, and
(iii) the consumption of alcohol and drugs;"
From Wikipedia: "Sleep hygiene is the recommended behavioral and environmental practice that is intended to promote better quality sleep."
We now need a training program to teach pilots how to be an adult?!?!

There are some good things in here, but a lot of clarity is needed.
- it means they can't force you to work without a break.

- that's your own accommodation. If the company has a proper crew rest area as defined by the regulations then its 10

-after decades of sleep studies, yes, generally people are ill informed about healthy sleep habits. It's a training component that goes hand in hand with the practical side of things.

They are just laying down the legal framework, there is still lots of time to adjust.

Don't Panic
---------- ADS -----------
 
5400AirportRdSouth
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:23 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by 5400AirportRdSouth »

Nothing would warm my cold dead heart more than seeing the SMS inboxes of every carrier attempting the FRMS end run to get filled with fatigue reports on Day One.

Thats all it would take to completely kill the FRMS bypass.

All it would take is for pilots to grow a set and stand up together against this BS...call it a national sleep-out.

I cant even decipher the FRMS section, lots of words and zero substance. The synergies and dynamics in the data collection, review and procedural collaboration between stakeholders, will allow us to maximize efficiencies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Remember, only YOU can stop Narcissism
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

Redneck_pilot86 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:32 pm Some of these laws seem silly to me:'

"700.37 An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with not less than 15 minutes every 6 hours within a flight duty period to eat and drink."
It would appear the pilot is not obligated to take this time? Personally, I snack all day in cruise, and never go anywhere without a travel mug full of coffee. I have no need nor desire to take a mandatory 15 minute break.

One of the goals of the new rules are to force the worst operators to treat their pilots in a humane manner. As an airline pilot you could have plenty of time to snack, but the guy flying a 206 single pilot 14 hours straight, afraid to lose his first job, might not have that time or luxury. So it is good that these new regulations make it mandatory to give pilots at least a 15 minute break every 6 hours. How can you even complain about that. You could work 12 hours with only a 15 minute break in the middle and that's too much of a break for you :?:
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
ehv8oar
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:23 am

Re: New duty regs are out

Post by ehv8oar »

I really hope I am incorrectly interpreting these new regs!! Apparently Medevac operators are basically exempt from all the new regs and can continue to go for 14hrs!?!?!?!?! HAHAHAH that is just silly. Out of all of the jobs I have had, I was the most fatigued while operating on a 24hr on-call medevac schedule. Why are they exempt?!?! Just hire some more damn pilots!!!
Exactly, it's just ridiculous.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”