New Arbitrated Contract

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flashheart
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by flashheart » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:09 pm

How do you pass your medical every year?
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bose
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by bose » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 pm

I'm surprised too flashheart
the Canadian Aviation Regulations Part IV, Standard 424.17 (4) specifies the physical and mental standards for medical categories. The standard related to mental issues is stated in 1.3 (a), 2.3(a), 3.3(a), 4.3(b):

“The applicant shall have no established medical history or clinical diagnosis which, according to accredited medical conclusion, would render the applicant unable to exercise safely the privileges of the permit, licence or rating applied for or held, as follows: (a) psychosis or established neurosis.”
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Ex99guy » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:28 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm
Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing,
This coming from the guy who voted in a B scale at Jazz.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:15 am

jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am
...
We lost big.

...
All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.

All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.

JJJ
Why keep grinding that axe and obsess with this guy when clearly he can't do anything that would win your approval, stay, leave, doesn't matter, keep on ranting and blame your problems on others! If you are a WestJet pilot pre-Encore era, you too are "off the street", unless of course you were born with 4 bars at WestJet with all its privileges!!
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Last edited by cloak on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:31 am

Ex99guy wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:28 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm
Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing,
This coming from the guy who voted in a B scale at Jazz.
indeed, it is a matter of perspective. From another perspective one could argue that it is the fault of those Jazz "scabs" that undercut Skyservice which had a really nice pay structure all with the ambition of flying a jet. In the process they upset Air Canada which undercut them by bringing Sky regional. Then they voted for a "B" scale at Jazz to secure a 2.6% raise for the senior guys under ALPA's supervision no less.

Or another could argue it's the fault of those WestJet "scabs" that took the well-paying jobs of Canadian and Canada 3000 and replaced it with their 60 k for B737 captains....all a matter of perspective.

Some people have selective memory, or they are very young and were not around at those times. Now they take a snapshot of this time and what serves them, and brand whoever perceived outside that small circle, with all kinds of names.

The truth of the matter however is that individual pilots cannot influence the market. And market forces seem to be in favour of ULCCs at the moment and this is the reality that comes with it. In the end, unrealistic expectations created by ALPA/MEC set up a case where anything less than perfection would be viewed a total failure and disappointment. The same guys that were happy and singing the arbitrator's praises for booting a few direct-hire captains, are now disappointed by him!

ALPA is a business that is run by increasing its web of membership, much like a pyramid. It uses all propaganda to grow that membership base. In reality however, no union, or strike can do the job of an old-fashioned negotiations and persuasion by reason to build consensus.
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telex
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by telex » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:19 am

ZIp. Work more. For less money. On ancient equipment. And frozen in position for years.

Zip pilots have nothing on the Swoop 26.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:26 am

Umm, excuse me, Alpa male and I are not the same people. I am busy working. Yesterday was 10 hours at double time, so that was a $4300 day (YWG-MBJ-YYZ).

Apparently (no one has seen the WPSL) I was wrong in my prediction of the ordering of the current WPSL. (Not wrong on Swoop pay, I won that bet with KAG). I seriously did not think ALPA would risk violation of the established 62 year old seniority policy. I wonder if they realize the can of worms they have sealed up for opening at some point down the road?

With respect to the OTS pilots, they had a common law duty of fair representation in place from May 12, 2017, that existed and was applicable even during the negotiation phase of the CBA. So, has ALPA met that duty? That will obviously be a decision of a judge, should the matter proceed to court (I would be surprised if it didn't).

Unions are given wide berth by the courts/labour boards and are above scrutiny with regards to their negotiation of collective agreements, subject only to the DFR. Was ALPA being discriminatory or arbitrary in granting super-seniority to the pre-existing flowthrough pilots on the WPSL? Did they have justificable reasons to give some bargaining unit members more credit than others? Was this a "uniform principle of seniority", as the ALPA Constitution states as an objective.

Obviously, ALPA violated a 62 year old established BOD policy on seniority; a policy as I have shown (through archival material from 1956) was devised in order to avoid, as much as possible I would add, controversy in future mergers. So, by their own words and experience, ALPA has exposed the WJ bargaining unit members to additional controversy in the event a merger happens within the lifetime of the current generation of junior pilots. They must have had justifiable reasons to do so.

The breach of contract issue is evidently still live. Ignoring the instruction of the ALPA BOD to use "every means at its command" to achieve a DOH ordered seniority list seems at best a risky venture.

And what of damages/remedies should a class action suit in civil court be successful? Is a renegotiation of the list available or is it strictly economic restitution?

Anyhow, I don't know where this issue heads, but I suspect this is not the end of it. There is still the matter of the LOU. The statutory DFR is in place as of January 1, 2019, so from that point on, all pilots on the WPSL have a legal right to their seniority rankings.

All of the material I have gathered is available to whomover asks at pilotjohnjohn@gmail.com.

Happy new year everyone, don't be mad. That's a life shortener. As it stands for everyone reading here, our deaths will occur in anywhere from one minute to sixty-ish years from now.

Don't be boring.

TTFN
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:52 am

Hangry wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 am
2 unanswered posts back to back. Sure John, this isn't you. :roll: :lol:
Hi Hangry, on Friday the 21st, I got into YWG in the afternoon, had lunch at East India Gardens, went back to my room and had a massive Indian food infused bowel movement, then posted my mea culpa response here.

My next Avcanada activity was a few minutes ago, as I was working all day yesterday ($4300 WJPA dollars) and started early. One way to distinguish me and Alpa male is that I am much too partisan to post anything but only the most gentlest of criticisms of the WJPA. I respect everyone's right to a different opinion.

I have no interest in working out time zones and converting them to the times that Alpa male posted yesterday, but here is my schedule (flightaware WJA 2432) from Dec 22:

Dec_22_Sked.jpeg
Dec_22_Sked.jpeg (51.81 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by KAG » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am

John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by dogfood » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am

What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:52 am

dogfood wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am
What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am

KAG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
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dogfood
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by dogfood » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:33 am

Lightchop wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:52 am
dogfood wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am
What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
Thanks your helpful
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Demeter » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 am

Good points and I think the hype generated by those that were organizing are now realizing they were looking through rose coloured glasses and promised what could not be delivered. KAG you were guilty of this too and I hope you guys actually come out and apologize to us. Kaplan isn’t dumb and I hear he had the respect of both groups. I also think the wrong guy ran the Alpa shop outta the gates. Wrong path, wrong foot. Love the guy we have in now and I believe it’s time to move forward. John won the bet on one list too since we have to merge everything together down the road. Not as dumb as you guys try and portray him as.

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am
KAG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:08 am

Agreed re: current MEC Chairman. The bargaining unit needs to expunge any remaining vestiges of WPPA tainted pilots, and move forward together in a cooperative spirit with leadership.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:06 am

Demeter wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 am
Good points and I think the hype generated by those that were organizing are now realizing they were looking through rose coloured glasses and promised what could not be delivered. KAG you were guilty of this too and I hope you guys actually come out and apologize to us. Kaplan isn’t dumb and I hear he had the respect of both groups. I also think the wrong guy ran the Alpa shop outta the gates. Wrong path, wrong foot. Love the guy we have in now and I believe it’s time to move forward. John won the bet on one list too since we have to merge everything together down the road. Not as dumb as you guys try and portray him as.

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am
KAG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
Can someone please explain to me if there is a definitive answer regarding the "one-list" question?

A previous poster alluded to the company simply having bigger fish to fry at the moment. While I agree with part of that statement, I would think that if it was already agreed upon it would have been stated by now. My understanding is that the company has received an LOU from the union expressing the unions desire for the one-list and thats that.

Others claim there is no way the company will not agree to it as it is the only thing keeping Encore pilots behind. But is it really? AC isn't exactly promising express pilots, jobs at mainline let alone a seniority number ahead of any OTS hires. And they're not exactly leaving in masse. They are actually overstaffed according to the jazz drivers here.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FICU » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:47 am

KAG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So no change to pay at Swoop by the arbitrator??

What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:48 pm

dogfood wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:33 am
Lightchop wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:52 am
dogfood wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am
What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
Thanks your helpful
You're
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by skybaron » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:15 pm

.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by skybaron » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:17 pm

skybaron wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:15 pm
FICU wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:47 am

What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
Brilliant. :smt023
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm

FICU wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:47 am
KAG wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am
I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So no change to pay at Swoop by the arbitrator??

What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
Uh huh. Sure.

:roll:

Do you honestly think that employees who are now the subject of a collective agreement achieved by a legally sought and agreed to process can now somehow reopen the terms by some sort of coordinated action (that doesn't even make sense)? Seriously. I can forgive skybaron's support because his first language is likely not english, but FICU, you should know better.

The way a bid works is everyone has a bid or standing bid in place. All the positions will be filled. The shittiest postitions get filled by the most junior employees, or did you think that somehow that seats would be left without pilots? lol, that's a good one.

Cheers,

Johnny I've Been Around The Block And Heard Dumb Ideas Before
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by moe » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Johnny just remember to take away the 4.5 hr straight time off that $4300 if you’re on VOCD..
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FICU » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:13 pm

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm
Uh huh. Sure.
Lighten up Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Sharklasers » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:22 pm

FICU wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:13 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm
Uh huh. Sure.
Easy there Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
Sounds like that was the risk. Rolled the dice pay the price.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. As much as I truly hate most everything John Swallows writes it seems like he called alot of what's gone down. If I had to guess I'd say alot of his pessimistic ramblings are probably influenced by his previous experiences as an ALPA represented pilot.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by I WAS Birddog » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:25 pm

2% per year cost of living raise. Of which 1.9% goes to ALPA. :smt104

Amazing.

:smt038
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