China_CAAC's Merged Threads

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The Raven
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Raven »

John,

You say that once a year you step out of your comfort zone and think of others instead of yourself. So in other words, 364 days a year you only think of yourself? Is that right?

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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by Alcoholism »

The Raven wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:49 am John,

You say that once a year you step out of your comfort zone and think of others instead of yourself. So in other words, 364 days a year you only think of yourself? Is that right?

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Which is one day more a year than the vast lot of pilots in Canada
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Rezy
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy »

cloak wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:04 pm
Rezy wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:26 pm
cloak wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm It's really pathetic and immature how some keep going on about this. Theirs is the example of a team that is so focused on who they perceive as a "Maradona" (few direct-hire pilots) that they have lost focus on important issues and conceded 6 or 7 goals without even turning around to notice it!!
Conceded 6 or 7 goals? How could you possibly know that? There isn’t a contract in place yet! So you are just posturing. ALPA is laser focused on the formal arbitration arguments coming up in early December and there haven’t been any concecessions.
Scope is by far the most important part of a contract and ALPA protected it for all WJ pilots.
I rest my case!!!
No one conceded in binding arbitration. Each side makes their case for a particular item and the arbitrator makes an award.
Although this award didn’t meet the expectations of the ALPA in regards to Swoop. Overall, their are a lot of big wins for WJ pilots with regards to scope, layoffs, duty rigs, ESP/Pension, YOS, all while retaining the best vacation rules out of any North American airline.
The only way Swoop can grow is to knock out other airlines and no longer cannibalize WJ flying at the cost of WJ pilots.
The unfortunate part is the Swoop wawcon, which although I haven’t seen the company propose LOU, likely lowers the bar significantly for pilot salaries.
If you’re currently a WJ pilot, congrats this award is actually pretty good for you.
If you’re a pilot trying to get in at WJ, too bad this award means you could spend half your life at Swoop or Encore.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by cloak »

Rezy wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:19 am
cloak wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:04 pm
Rezy wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:26 pm

Conceded 6 or 7 goals? How could you possibly know that? There isn’t a contract in place yet! So you are just posturing. ALPA is laser focused on the formal arbitration arguments coming up in early December and there haven’t been any concecessions.
Scope is by far the most important part of a contract and ALPA protected it for all WJ pilots.
I rest my case!!!
No one conceded in binding arbitration. Each side makes their case for a particular item and the arbitrator makes an award.
Although this award didn’t meet the expectations of the ALPA in regards to Swoop. Overall, their are a lot of big wins for WJ pilots with regards to scope, layoffs, duty rigs, ESP/Pension, YOS, all while retaining the best vacation rules out of any North American airline.
The only way Swoop can grow is to knock out other airlines and no longer cannibalize WJ flying at the cost of WJ pilots.
The unfortunate part is the Swoop wawcon, which although I haven’t seen the company propose LOU, likely lowers the bar significantly for pilot salaries.
If you’re currently a WJ pilot, congrats this award is actually pretty good for you.
If you’re a pilot trying to get in at WJ, too bad this award means you could spend half your life at Swoop or Encore.
Well, my point was that ALPA and its leaders focused so much on what they perceived as "Maradona" that they conceded many goals, like a meaningful raise, like pay parity with Air Canada, like LTD, like pay parity between WestJet and Swoop, like better benefits, like retro pay, like immediate YOS, and all the other things they promised, that they totally lost the game.

But since you are so sweet and caring, same to you. If you are a WestJet pilot, congratulations, there is a 90% chance you get to keep your job while paying 1.85% dues to Herndon, Virginia. If you are also in the queue for Air Canada like many others at WestJet, your chances are good since the number for hiring is quite high (600?) next year. So good luck!
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

In parsing the DFR owed to WJ pilots, as you know, the 62 year-old BOD Seniority policy looms large. Like Bill Clinton would do, I am picking apart every part of every sentence in the policy. When ALPA "...is instructed to use every means at its command..." to achieve a DOH seniority list, I am looking for guidance in other documents as to what using "every means at its command" might entail.

The following excerpt is page 9 from a now unclassified 1960's CIA document detailing a proposal to fight the threat of Communism in the "Far East". While it is not an explicit definition, I know from the Rambo movies in the 80's that the CIA was pretty serious about fighting Communism.
Dear
Mr.
Date:
The undersigned have become associated in an organization to be known as the Committee for a Free Asia. This organizationhas been set up along somewhat the same lines as the National Committee for a Free Europe, headed by C. D. Jackson and its Crusade for Freedom under the leadership of General Lucius Clay. It will expect to do the same job in Asia as is presently being done in Europe, that is, vigorously to fight Communism with every means at its command. From the numerous refugees who have fled China for this country and other parts of the world to escape Communism, we know there is in China a strong counter-movement against Mao Tse-tung and his Soviet conceived police state. We feel that by proper propaganda methods, this Committee can really be effectual in helping to crystallize the anti-Communist movement, particularly in China....
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The Tenth Man
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

This 2001 (post 9-11) research paper from The Federalist Society concerning the US Government's ability to monitor federal prisoner (client-attorney) communications has the following phrase:
"We are in a War, and Unlawful Belligerents have No Claim to Constitutional Protection." [1] The first duty of any government is to protect the lives and safety of its citizens. After September 11, there can be no serious argument that our government must use every means at its command to discharge that duty.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

In 1942, at the height of WWII, the US President, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, wrote a letter to the Greek Ambassador to the USA:
FDR
On the occasion of the second year from Greece’s resistance against Italy, President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s wrote a “Message to Greece”:

October 28, 1942.

My Dear Mr. Ambassador:

On the early morning of October 28, 1940, the Fascist aggressors handed an ultimatum to Greece. The challenge was hurled back without a moment’s hesitation. This was what might have been expected from a gallant and courageous people devoted to their homeland. You commemorate tonight the second anniversary of the beginning of the total resistance of the Greek people to totalitarian warfare.

More significant, even, than the initial reply to the challenge is the fact that Greece has continued to fight, with every means at its command. When the Greek mainland was overrun, the resistance was carried on from the islands. When the islands fell, resistance continued from Africa, from the seas, from anywhere the aggressor could be met.

To those who prefer to compromise, to follow a course of expediency or to appease, or to count the cost, I say that Greece has set the example which every one of us must follow until the despoilers of freedom everywhere have been brought to their just doom.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

Now, as you are all aware, I am not a lawyer. But, the three examples I have just posted, all referencing violent conflict or action, would lead a reasonable person to conclude that if you are going to undertake any activity with every means at your command, you are going to use ALL of your resources to achieve the desired goal.

Would a reasonable person conclude that ALPA used all of its resources to achieve a DOH ordered seniority list, as its own Board of Directors instructed it to do so?

Thanks that make you go hmmm.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

From the Nellis v. ALPA posted above, the following paragraph is taken:
While the parties disagree concerning whether ALPA fulfilled its representational obligations to the plaintiffs, the parties are at least in tacit agreement that any shortcoming in ALPA's representation was not a consequence of capricious or irrational action by ALPA. As the ample record makes manifest, ALPA's position on the implementation of the Fragmentation Policy was the result of an extensive series of meetings of ALPA's Executive Committee, in which the Committee meticulously parsed the language of the Merger Policy and delineated exactly what actions ALPA was required to undertake on behalf of the Eastern pilots. Clearly, ALPA's failure to negotiate with sufficient vigor to appease the Eastern pilots was a result of the simple fact that ALPA also represented pilots at the airlines that acquired Eastern assets. As a result, ALPA found itself in a position in which the interests of various subgroups of its membership were in conflict with one another.
Compare and contrast ALPA's actions with respect to the Eastern pilots, in which it "meticulously parsed the language of the Merger Policy and delineated exactly what actions ALPA was required to undertake on behalf of the Eastern pilots."

The incoming Canada Board President stated in October that:

"Our first MEC resolution was to recognize Encore pilots as WestJet pilots – essentially to remove any professional barriers between our pilot groups that exist because of corporate branding or aircraft type. Since then I’ve been working with their MEC officers to cement the one seniority list concept and the unification of our pilot groups starting with eventually creating a single MEC structure."

Does this sound like the actions of a group that "meticulously parsed the language" of the Seniority Policy and "delineated exactly what actions ALPA was required to undertake on behalf of the" OTS pilots?

Hmmm.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by skybaron »

Rezy,

I fail to see how this contract is a big win for anyone. It’s seems what’s been accomplished is the same thing you’ve all been complaining about with Air Canada, and how their contract only took care of the senior greys while they ate their young.

Make no mistake, this is a terrible outcome.

You at WJ, always prided yourselves on culture and “togetherness” (whatever the f that is there). I remember hearing how everything was is in the shitter because of a loss of some Port system - which we all envied. You then received your commute policy to compensate.

Now WJ has RESERVE! I’m sure all those that have applied to WJ or work at Encore, that joined WJ primarily for lifestyle / culture and that commute, are absolutely thrilled with RESERVE. WJ may have the “best” commute policy out there, but you also had the ports..

For aspiring airline pilots, what about WJ would attract you to even apply to work there now?
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Breach of Constitution

Post by The Tenth Man »

The following three attachments should be read in order, one leading to the next. If ALPA has, as the WJ MEC has indicated it has done, negotiated a seniority list that gives seniority credit (superseniority) to some pilots based on their service at another company, then it likely is guilty of a breach of contractual duty owed to the pilots as a result of the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws.

ALPA members who contravened the Constitution may include the MEC Chairman, the MEC Vice-Chairman, and the three members of the Negotiating Committee, although the latter group could escape liability under a theory that they were merely following the directives of the MEC.



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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by The Tenth Man »

Regarding the Common Law DFR, one Canadian case suggests that the civil court can only award damages, i.e. a financial award to compensate for the breach of the DFR. I have no idea if that is actually the case, or if a judge could order re-ordering of the seniority list.

For a Breach of Contract finding, according to the following US law resource, a court has five remedies:
The five basic remedies for breach of contract include the following: money damages, restitution, rescission, reformation, and specific performance. A money damage award includes a sum of money that is given as compensation for financial losses caused by a breach of contract. Parties injured by a breach are entitled to the benefit of the bargain they entered, or the net gain that would have accrued but for the breach. The type of breach governs the extent of damages that may be recovered.
Regarding specific performance, the following is said:
Specific performance is an equitable remedy that compels one party to perform, as nearly as practicable, his or her duties specified by the contract. Specific performance is available only when money damages are inadequate to compensate the plaintiff for the breach. This ruling often happens when the subject matter of a contract is in dispute.
In a previous post, some time ago, I mentioned a recent Ontario case in which the Ontario Superior Court found that a union had breached its constitution. Here is what the presiding Justice ordered as a result of the finding:
D. CONCLUSION
[66] Therefore, I will treat the Plaintiffs’ motion as a motion for judgment. I grant judgment to the Plaintiffs and order that the Defendant union conduct leadership elections in which each member of CAWU may vote for the officers of the union. This election shall take place within 90 days of the release of these Reasons for Decision.

[67] If the parties cannot agree about the matter of how candidates for office are to be nominated or about any matter incidental to the election, they may make submissions in writing and I will settle the matter.

[68] If the parties cannot agree about the matter of costs, they may make submissions in writing beginning with the Plaintiffs’ submissions within 20 days of the release of these Reasons for Decision, followed by the Defendants’ submissions within a further 20 days.
As a result of the above case, I think it might be a reasonable possibility that if a court found that ALPA had violated its Constitution through the actions of its representatives (MEC Chairman, MEC Vice-Chairman, MEC Negotiating Committee members) in failing to comply with an established policy of the Board of Directors by negotiating a non-DOH seniority list, then I believe that a judge would be able to order specific performance, meaning he would order ALPA and the company (enjoined in the lawsuit?) to compose a seniority list that was in accordance with the established policy.
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Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy »

skybaron wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:52 am Rezy,

I fail to see how this contract is a big win for anyone. It’s seems what’s been accomplished is the same thing you’ve all been complaining about with Air Canada, and how their contract only took care of the senior greys while they ate their young.

Make no mistake, this is a terrible outcome.

You at WJ, always prided yourselves on culture and “togetherness” (whatever the f that is there). I remember hearing how everything was is in the shitter because of a loss of some Port system - which we all envied. You then received your commute policy to compensate.

Now WJ has RESERVE! I’m sure all those that have applied to WJ or work at Encore, that joined WJ primarily for lifestyle / culture and that commute, are absolutely thrilled with RESERVE. WJ may have the “best” commute policy out there, but you also had the ports..

For aspiring airline pilots, what about WJ would attract you to even apply to work there now?

Overall I agree with your assessment, this has done nothing for aspiring pilots.
I was simply pointing out some of the contract awards and how it certainly brought mainline WJ pilots into parity with their peers at othe major carriers.
I think the struggle to find quality pilots at WJ will get extremely difficult over the next few years because this award separates the mainline from the ulcc from the regional more so than any pilot wanted.
WJ was always getting reserve with the transatlantic flying and 787 it wouldn’t be possible to staff the flying if someone got sick without reserve. So that’s a nature of the airline growing and not a negotiating loss. That being said, I’m told the reserve system is commutable starting with all reserve being 36 hour long call reserve, but I haven’t seen the fine print.
I don’t think you’ll see WJ pilots leaving for AC in droves, but you will see Swoop or Encore pilots treating their current jobs as a stepping stone rather than semi permanent.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by FL410AV8R »

Holy crap John is this another personality????
The Tenth Man wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:32 am Regarding the Common Law DFR, one Canadian case suggests that the civil court can only award damages, i.e. a financial award to compensate for the breach of the DFR. I have no idea if that is actually the case, or if a judge could order re-ordering of the seniority list.

For a Breach of Contract finding, according to the following US law resource, a court has five remedies:
The five basic remedies for breach of contract include the following: money damages, restitution, rescission, reformation, and specific performance. A money damage award includes a sum of money that is given as compensation for financial losses caused by a breach of contract. Parties injured by a breach are entitled to the benefit of the bargain they entered, or the net gain that would have accrued but for the breach. The type of breach governs the extent of damages that may be recovered.
Regarding specific performance, the following is said:
Specific performance is an equitable remedy that compels one party to perform, as nearly as practicable, his or her duties specified by the contract. Specific performance is available only when money damages are inadequate to compensate the plaintiff for the breach. This ruling often happens when the subject matter of a contract is in dispute.
In a previous post, some time ago, I mentioned a recent Ontario case in which the Ontario Superior Court found that a union had breached its constitution. Here is what the presiding Justice ordered as a result of the finding:
D. CONCLUSION
[66] Therefore, I will treat the Plaintiffs’ motion as a motion for judgment. I grant judgment to the Plaintiffs and order that the Defendant union conduct leadership elections in which each member of CAWU may vote for the officers of the union. This election shall take place within 90 days of the release of these Reasons for Decision.

[67] If the parties cannot agree about the matter of how candidates for office are to be nominated or about any matter incidental to the election, they may make submissions in writing and I will settle the matter.

[68] If the parties cannot agree about the matter of costs, they may make submissions in writing beginning with the Plaintiffs’ submissions within 20 days of the release of these Reasons for Decision, followed by the Defendants’ submissions within a further 20 days.
As a result of the above case, I think it might be a reasonable possibility that if a court found that ALPA had violated its Constitution through the actions of its representatives (MEC Chairman, MEC Vice-Chairman, MEC Negotiating Committee members) in failing to comply with an established policy of the Board of Directors by negotiating a non-DOH seniority list, then I believe that a judge would be able to order specific performance, meaning he would order ALPA and the company (enjoined in the lawsuit?) to compose a seniority list that was in accordance with the established policy.
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.80@410
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by .80@410 »

I wonder if the moderators can ban him just for being a tool.

He needs help and this forum is getting overrun with his crap.
It’s not even worth reading posts anymore. Soon as he posts, people sign off.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by JTrain »

.80@410 wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:45 pm I wonder if the moderators can ban him just for being a tool.

He needs help and this forum is getting overrun with his crap.
It’s not even worth reading posts anymore. Soon as he posts, people sign off.
+1.

Steve Bannon's "Flood the zone with shit" quote comes to mind.

The sad thing is, this website has the potential to be a great resource. You still do find incredible insights - but rarely in the WJ section anymore.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by George Taylor »

He totally E'fed the WJPA forum as well.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by lostaviator »

George Taylor wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:50 am He totally E'fed the WJPA forum as well.
Yep. Even his close “allies” stopped participating on the jpa forums over there once he started posting this garbage.

I suggest we do the same.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by North Shore »

.80@410 wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:45 pm I wonder if the moderators can ban him just for being a tool.

He needs help and this forum is getting overrun with his crap.
It’s not even worth reading posts anymore. Soon as he posts, people sign off.
.80, JTrain, George, and lost: once you’ve signed in, click on the down arrow next to your username, and go to ‘User Control Panel’. Once there, you’ll see an option to manage friends and foes. If you were to add Mr.Swallow to the ‘foes’ list, you’ll no longer see his posts. I suggest that you do that forthwith, so as to forestall any further consternation on your behalf at the content, or lack thereof, in his postings.
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Re: China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Post by skybaron »

North Shore wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:58 pm
.80@410 wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:45 pm I wonder if the moderators can ban him just for being a tool.

He needs help and this forum is getting overrun with his crap.
It’s not even worth reading posts anymore. Soon as he posts, people sign off.
.80, JTrain, George, and lost: once you’ve signed in, click on the down arrow next to your username, and go to ‘User Control Panel’. Once there, you’ll see an option to manage friends and foes. If you were to add Mr.Swallow to the ‘foes’ list, you’ll no longer see his posts. I suggest that you do that forthwith, so as to forestall any further consternation on your behalf at the content, or lack thereof, in his postings.
YES!!! Finally some useful advice!

John - please seek medical help. Seriously. How you pass your medical is beyond all of us.
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